My thoughts on the OTT/TOR series...

[Goober Mcfly]

Nuts.

As the third period was dying away last night, I felt a mixture of emotions...from sadness to anger to respect to hope.

I'm sad the Sens couldn't make it past the Leafs again. I'm sad that they actually played mostly up to their potential but ran into an ultra-hot goaltender. I'm sad that I needed to log onto TERB the next day and listen to asshats like Johnnyhandsome rant and rave about how the Sens suck.

Which brings out the anger. I'm sick of people saying the Sens have no heart, no grit, no determination. I think they've proved otherwise. They won most of the battles, but lost the war. And not by much either. Last night was not the blow out of a few years ago, the final score withstanding. And as I listen to the echoing "woo-hoo!"'s emenating from the hallways and offices around me, I get pissed that the Leaf fans around here actually think that the result of this series makes it okay to chant "Sens suck" and belittle the team I love.

However, there were players on the Leafs team that deserve my respect. First and foremost, Eddie Belfour. This guy took the entire team and hopes of the entire Leaf Nation on his shoulder pads and still made save after glorious save. For that he deserves everyone's respect. I also respect and admire Joe Nieuwendyk, Brian McCabe and Gary Roberts for playing their hearts out in the series. These four are the only Leafs deserving of my respect and admiration. I tip my hat to most of the Senator team though. With the exception of Bonk (where the fark was he?) and a few others, the fact that the Sens out-shot, out-chanced, out-hit, out-hustled and out-most everything else except out-scoring is admirable.

Which leads me to where I am now. With a sense of hope. I hope the Leafs are eliminated in four. I hope that Calgary or Montreal wins the Cup. I hope that there will be hockey next year. And I live in the hope that the Senators are a young(er) team with many good years left in them.

Well done Toronto.

[superquad1968]

Goober,

Have hope.

By any measure the Leafs should have been eliminated in 4 games. The Sens, for all the reasons you mentioned, were the better team. I hope with the rash of free agents that will come this summer Muckler will get you guys the one thing you're missing a top notch goaltender.

There's always next year.

BTW Thank you for being a somewhat rational fan. The one that can see the positives of the other team.

SQ

[HowardHughes]

Well said, Goob.

HH

[Marshall Stack]

Well said Goober. It was an evenly matched battle that could have easily gone the other way and for all intents and purposes, probably should have if not for Belfour.

I envy the talent on the Sens team and I do think that they are the team of the future. Personally, I thought the Leafs were going to get blown out in game seven. Luck happened to be on our side in spades.

I do think that they need a new coach, though. One with fire and brimstone in his heart. That would have the trickle-down effect needed to take these guys to a higher level. That and make Fisher captain of the team! Fisher, Schaefer (sp?) and Chara were freakin' awesome.

Perhaps Melnyk will splurge for a serious money goalie. If all that takes place, you can guarantee a parade down Rideau.

[Cardinal Fang]

Well put Goober. There will be some major changes in the off season (goaltending and possibly even coaches) and it will be interesting to know how the Sens play as a result of it.

[Ranger68]

No respect for Domi? Whatever. The better team won, and Domi was the best Leaf skater. More backhanded compliments. You tip your hat to the entire Sens team, yet say that *only* those four Leafs were "deserving" of your admiration. Frankly, poor sportsmanship.

"I hope the Leafs are eliminated in four"?! Thanks Eugene "We're gonna kill them" Melnyk. Or should that be Daniel "I guarantee wins in game six and seven, followed by a Cup win" Alfredsson.

Goober, no offense intended, but do you think it's possible that some portion of the "Sens suck" chants you're hearing today have to do with the fact that it became, at some point, de rigeur in Ottawa to sport "Leafs suck" hats and t-shirts? Since when did it become anything but poor sportsmanship to belittle another team rather than rooting for your own? Never have I seen such behaviour out of teams from other towns. I mean, playoff behaviour is one thing, when emotions rise to incredible levels, but this has been going on in Ottawa for some seasons now, at all times of the year.

If you're looking for class, don't start with your own fans. Glass houses and all .......

[Goober Mcfly]

Ranger68: What about the entire ACC booing everytime Alfredsson touched the puck?

And get over your unhealthy man-love for Domi. Don't you think it's a bit sad that Domi is regarded as one of the best offensive players in the series?

I've given credit where I feel it's due. To say that the entire Leaf team out-played Ottawa is looking through blue and white coloured glasses. The Leafs are advancing because of the efforts of a very few players. McCabe, Roberts, Nieuwendyk and (most importantly) Belfour.

Give your head a shake if you think otherwise.

[The Doctor]

Originally posted by Goober Mcfly
I'm sick of people saying the Sens have no heart, no grit, no determination. I think they've proved otherwise. They won most of the battles, but lost the war. And not by much either. Last night was not the blow out of a few years ago, the final score withstanding. And as I listen to the echoing "woo-hoo!"'s emenating from the hallways and offices around me, I get pissed that the Leaf fans around here actually think that the result of this series makes it okay to chant "Sens suck" and belittle the team I love.

Goober, I don't mean to kick salt into an open wound, but I too get pissed off when people around here (TERB) feel they are justified for beating the "Leafs/Toronto sucks" for no good reason.

The Leafs played their best game last night and your goaltenders did not. As I said yesterday, you win or loose with the players on the ice. Belfour played the way he is expected to/capable of playing. When Sens fans (not you specifically) make generalizations and criticisms about MLSE and Leaf management and their complacency, they forget that it is that very group of "businessmen" who signed Belfour to a contract when Cujo bailed on Toronto for that Cup victory in Detroit. They are also the guys who brought in Nieuwendyk, Leetch and Klee this year.

Ottawa is a good team and I don't question their heart, but I do think there is a need for some tinkering this off-season , as there will be for the Leafs, if they want to continue to improve their chances of winning the Cup. It was John Muckler who said the sens need to learn how to win and I'm guessing that learning experience will come in the moving of some core players to change the dynamic of the team.

As a Leaf fan I'm happy about the victory, but not content with the way it was achieved. Against Ottawa they did not demonstrate that they can be a dominant force for an extened period of time, with the exception of the goaltending. I don't think that will be enough to get past the Flyers, but hey, stranger things have happend.

Yesterday you optimisticly suggested this would end around 10:00 last night and although it is 10ish the next morning, I offer my congratulations to the Sens players and management for an outstanding effort in this series. They have some decissions to make in the off-season, but the a smart people and I expect that we will be going through this again next season around this time. My condolences to Sens fans for their loss, although sadly outnumbered where I watched the game last night, they were passionate and true to their colours.


*extends hand in a concilliatory manner*

[Ranger68]

Originally posted by Goober Mcfly
Ranger68: What about the entire ACC booing everytime Alfredsson touched the puck?

And get over your unhealthy man-love for Domi. Don't you think it's a bit sad that Domi is regarded as one of the best offensive players in the series?

I've given credit where I feel it's due. To say that the entire Leaf team out-played Ottawa is looking through blue and white coloured glasses. The Leafs are advancing because of the efforts of a very few players. McCabe, Roberts, Nieuwendyk and (most importantly) Belfour.

Give your head a shake if you think otherwise.

Lots of guys get booed in other teams' buildings. So?

Why is my respect for Domi's abilities "unhealthy"? Obviously, you have nothing really intelligent to add, since you're resorting to calling it "man-love", and "sad" that Domi was one of the best offensive players in the series. (Actually, I never said one of the best offensive players, I said one of the best skaters - that is, most productive and effective. Lots of players had more points.)

The entire Leaf team outplayed Ottawa in that our team AS A WHOLE played better than your team - not that every individual player was better than every Ottawa player - not what I said. Hockey is won as a team, lost as a team.
Give YOUR head a shake if you think otherwise.

I maintain that it's a very backhanded compliment to say we won "in spite of" everyone but a very select group of players.

[Kathleen]

Goober - I felt bad Toronto moved on. Well, more guilty. I Know this team was far from deserving of another round. The first two games, they pounded Ottawa hit for hit.
But games 3-7, all Ottawa in the 'GRIT' Dept. Ottawa out hussled, out shot, out played the Leafs in 5 of 7 games. You only need 4 for a series, to that makes Ottawa the Front runner here.

Basically, Ottawa should fire nobody! I would not want to face this team again. As Toronto gets older, Ottawa gets more experienced. This series win was not different then seeing the Ducks take out the Wings.

Gloat, I cannot. Gobber, be proud, you were rooting for the better team. Last night my horse came in, but it was a million to one shot called 'One Hot Goalie'.

Thanks for being a sport, keep the chin up
Kathleen

[Goober Mcfly]

*grasps The Doctor's hand, shakes it firmly*

Thanks, and I agree with all you said. I guess there are two types of fans of both teams.

1. The rabid "I hate anything to do with the other team" fans; and
2. The genuine "I hope my team wins, but if they don't I hope it's at least entertaining"

We seem to be agreed that No. 1 is a pain in the ass. Good luck to the Leafs in the next series.

[duMaurierguy]

As a lifelong (and suffering) Leaf fan, I too have hope. Hope that this will finally be the year that Lord Standley's Cup is brought home. This has been a hope ever since I could remember. Each season ending in disappointment and renewed hope with each new season.

Goob, your feeling about your team are well understood. Ironically, Leaf fans probably understand best. Ottawa has a fine young team with many talented players. A few building blocks away from the 'brass ring'. One thing is certain. We can always count on a great match every time these two teams meet regardless of the outcome.

Is this finally the Leafs' year? I hope so...

[Ranger68]

Originally posted by Goober Mcfly
*grasps The Doctor's hand, shakes it firmly*

Thanks, and I agree with all you said. I guess there are two types of fans of both teams.

1. The rabid "I hate anything to do with the other team" fans; and
2. The genuine "I hope my team wins, but if they don't I hope it's at least entertaining"

We seem to be agreed that No. 1 is a pain in the ass. Good luck to the Leafs in the next series.

Yup. I agree wholeheartedly. Those number one guys are a pain in the ass.

[Sheik]

Well in that case I apologize for posting the sens "new" jersey.

Seriously though, Ottawa played a great game and the only reason Alfredson was booed was because of his hairbrained comments and actions in the past taunting the leaf fans.

It comes around to what goes around comes around and when someone (like alfredson) is arrogant about it it reflects badly on the entire team. I am a true blue and white fan and it is the only professional sports team I actually follow and cheer for.

That being said, Domi had the determination to really push himself as did Tucker. I just wish the rest of the leafs would push as hard as those two. If they do, then we have an unbeatable team in front of an outstanding goalie.

I tip my hat to the sens and wish them better luck next year.

BB16, the dream lives on.

[Goober Mcfly]

Originally posted by Ranger68
The entire Leaf team outplayed Ottawa in that our team AS A WHOLE played better than your team - not that every individual player was better than every Ottawa player - not what I said. Hockey is won as a team, lost as a team.
Give YOUR head a shake if you think otherwise.With all due respect, if you think this you're living in a dream world. Ask anyone except the rabid Leafs fans, Eddie Belfour stole the series.

I guess we need to agree to disagree.

Why is it okay for Leafs fans to boo Alfredsson for something he did months ago, but it's not okay for Senators fans to say "Leafs suck" when embroiled in a playoff series with them?

*wanders off shaking his head*

[HowardHughes]

I think measuring out from imperial to metric sucks...but I don't wear a t-shirt saying that...

Wait a minute...I think I should talk to Fang about this idea...I think I'm onto something!

[i_am_good]

Originally posted by Goober Mcfly
...Well done Toronto.

Nicely put, sir.

The Sens are a great team and yes, they do have heart.

Toronto cannot rely on Belfour to keep getting shutouts to save the day. More offence is in order if Lord Stanley is to be their destiny.

GO LEAFS GO!

[Ranger68]

Originally posted by Goober Mcfly
With all due respect, if you think this you're living in a dream world. Ask anyone except the rabid Leafs fans, Eddie Belfour stole the series.

I guess we need to agree to disagree.

Why is it okay for Leafs fans to boo Alfredsson for something he did months ago, but it's not okay for Senators fans to say "Leafs suck" when embroiled in a playoff series with them?

*wanders off shaking his head*

We don't need to agree to disagree. You're wrong about mostly everything.

Sorry, but isn't Belfour part of the Leafs team?!?! Isn't goaltending *PART OF HOCKEY*. A big part, as Belfour illustrated.
Once again: THE LEAFS OUTPLAYED THE SENATORS. If you think differently, you're living in a dream world. Ask anyone except rabid Senators fans.

And my other point, again *sigh*, was that Senator fans have been sporting this "Leafs suck" thing for a few seasons now, and not just in the playoffs. Of course, things happen in the playoffs. The Senators have made this part of their mantra.

Watch some playoff games. Almost every town has one visiting player they boo regularly these days. This has become accepted, or at least common behaviour. I still don't see people in Calgary wearing "Edmonton sucks" paraphernalia, or distributing it during food drives.

How's that??

Sheesh.

[The Doctor]

Originally posted by Goober Mcfly
We seem to be agreed that No. 1 is a pain in the ass.

We have them on both sides.

Kathleen: I disagree :eek: I don't think it was that big of a long-shot but to avoid re-hashing, I'll leave it at that. I hope you hadn't bought the red and black paint already.

[Goober Mcfly]

Originally posted by Ranger68
THE LEAFS OUTPLAYED THE SENATORS.
I'd like some statistics or ANYTHING to back that up, please.

Watch some playoff games. Almost every town has one visiting player they boo regularly these days. This has become accepted, or at least common behaviour. I still don't see people in Calgary wearing "Edmonton sucks" paraphernalia, or distributing it during food drives.
If booing another team's player is "accepted", why is berating your provincial rival suddenly childish?

If Calgary and Edmonton met in the playoffs 4 times in 5 years, you'd see even a bigger rivalry than you see in their regular season meetings (which is as intense as TOR/OTT)

[skiierman]

Daniel Allfredson wears the C for a reason, he has stepped into that role and I am sure he is more than willing to accept the responability that goes with it. I thought that his guarantee was his way of trying to be the leader on this team. He knew full well that he would either be the hero or the goat and he knew that Toronto's fans would be all over him yet he still decided to make that statement.

So,............... Good for him , he can play on coach skiiermans team any day.

[Ranger68]

Originally posted by Goober Mcfly
I'd like some statistics or ANYTHING to back that up, please.

If booing another team's player is "accepted", why is berating your provincial rival suddenly childish?

If Calgary and Edmonton met in the playoffs 4 times in 5 years, you'd see even a bigger rivalry than you see in their regular season meetings (which is as intense as TOR/OTT)

1. Leafs won in seven games. How's that for a statistic? The Leafs scored more goals and allowed fewer. It doesn't get more basic than that. How about one that backs up YOUR allegation? Wait - I'll subvert what I know you're going to say - please keep in mind that Belfour plays for the Leafs, and that goalies play a large part in determining how well teams play. Now, you were saying?

2. Berating your provincial rival is childish if it goes on at all times of the year, and people are actually going through the trouble to print and wear clothing with this motto on it. How is this difficult to understand? That booing someone isn't the same as carrying a rivalry through the off-season and regular season? To be perfectly frank, it's very understandable. I'd be pissed too if my team had been booted from the playoffs by the same team so many times without any payback. I understand it - it's still classless and childish.

(Oh, and as for Alfie, maybe he wouldn't have such a hard time if he didn't make himself such a target - mocking Sundin's stick throwing, making wild guarantees ...)

3. Lots of teams have heated, time-honoured rivalries - Calgary and Edmonton used to meet PLENTY in the playoffs. The Habs and Nordiques HATED each other. ..... I don't recall people doing anything but rooting hard at game time. That's a big difference.

[The Doctor]

Add a few hehehehehe's and you'd sound like Pansey.

*puts Ranger68 on ignore*

[xarir]

Originally posted by Goober Mcfly
We seem to be agreed that No. 1 is a pain in the ass. Good luck to the Leafs in the next series.

Starts chanting, "We're #2! We're #2! We're #2! :)

Personally I never wish ill will on the other team - I just hope they lose that's all. After all, that's my job as a fan.

But there are those to take things too far. The "Sens Suck" chant was a sign of that. Other boneheads boo the American anthem, while others start chanting U S A U S A U S A as if this is a coutry vs country thing instead of team vs team. Unfortunately the going too far isn't limited to normal fans though - Ottawa city council agreed that fans wearing Leaf jerseys should donate to the food bank and the Leafs responded by donating $5000 to the Ottawa food bank. IMHO that was really sillyness taken to a new level.

[Sheik]

Ranger,

Knock it off ok. The sens outplayed the leafs in everything but the one that really counted. Goals.

That said, the sens deserve applause for their efforts.

[Ranger68]

Originally posted by The Doctor
Add a few hehehehehe's and you'd sound like Pansey.

*puts Ranger68 on ignore*

Not even close.

Feel free.

And get over it.

[Ranger68]

Originally posted by Sheik
Ranger,

Knock it off ok. The sens outplayed the leafs in everything but the one that really counted. Goals.

That said, the sens deserve applause for their efforts.

Knock WHAT off, exactly?!?!?

The Sens outplayed the Leafs, but failed to score as many goals or win the series. ... This makes sense how?!

Belfour is a LEAF! Part of the team!

If you're trying to say something else, do so.

[Goober Mcfly]

Originally posted by Ranger68
1. Leafs won in seven games. How's that for a statistic? The Leafs scored more goals and allowed fewer. It doesn't get more basic than that. How about one that backs up YOUR allegation?238-154. Shots on goal, Ottawa/Toronto.

Wait - I'll subvert what I know you're going to say - please keep in mind that Belfour plays for the Leafs, and that goalies play a large part in determining how well teams play. Now, you were saying?But you said the entire Leaf TEAM outplayed the Senators. I still don't understand how one player's stellar performance translates into an entire team outplaying the other... Please do explain.

Berating your provincial rival is childish if it goes on at all times of the year, and people are actually going through the trouble to print and wear clothing with this motto on it.And this only came from ALL Senators fans, right? There were NO Leaf fans with "Sens Suck" signs. There weren't any "third jersey" jokes circulating with the Senator's logo-guy with a fist around his throat. Right. It's all the bad Ottawa fans. :rolleyes:
I don't recall people doing anything but rooting hard at game time. That's a big difference.I don't recall myself doing anything else either. Or are you painting us all with the same brush again?

[Ranger68]

Originally posted by Goober Mcfly
238-154. Shots on goal, Ottawa/Toronto.
But you said the entire Leaf TEAM outplayed the Senators. I still don't understand how one player's stellar performance translates into an entire team outplaying the other... Please do explain.
And this only came from ALL Senators fans, right? There were NO Leaf fans with "Sens Suck" signs. There weren't any "third jersey" jokes circulating with the Senator's logo-guy with a fist around his throat. Right. It's all the bad Ottawa fans. I don't recall myself doing anything else either. Or are you painting us all with the same brush again?

Shots don't win series, or even games. Goals do. If you're TRYING to say that the Senators *skaters* outplayed, on the whole, the Leafs *skaters*, you may have a point. But a WHOLE TEAM isn't just skaters. The goalie's a big part of it - a big part of TEAM SUCCESS. Again, I didn't say that every Leaf player outplayed every Sens player - just that the Leafs, as a whole, outplayed the Sens. To which you replied I was living in a dream world ......

I've NEVER seen anyone in Toronto walking around with a "Sens suck" shirt or hat. Nor anyone at any games. Wish I could say the same about Sens games I've seen in Ottawa, where "Leafs suck" was PREVALENT. Why aren't these guys putting more effort into rooting for their team than rooting against Toronto?

I'm not painting you all with the same brush and never have, so don't pull out that "again" card. ;) I don't know whether you wear a "Leafs suck" shirt or not. I know that lots of Sens fans do, and it's disappointing that a rivalry gets carried so far - AT ALL TIMES OF THE YEAR. The playoffs is one thing. A little bashing is expected.

And, to conclude, of course there are idiots on both sides.

[kooley]

Goober, you are so bitter, yet a true sportsman, that said seeing you type "leafs nation" brings a tear to my eye.

till next year my foe

[The Doctor]

Originally posted by Ranger68
And, to conclude, of course there are idiots on both sides.

A brief moment of clarity...or self-revelation?

[Ranger68]

What's the problem exactly, Doctor?

How about contributing something, other than just calling me a Pansey?

[Goober Mcfly]

Originally posted by Ranger68
Shots don't win series, or even games. Goals do.Just to point out the error in your logic:

Hypothetically! In a seven game series, the scores are:

Ott 6 Tor 1
Ott 1 Tor 2
Ott 0 Tor 2
Ott 4 Tor 1
Ott 0 Tor 1
Ott 1 Tor 0
Ott 1 Tor 2

Total goals? Ott 13 Tor 9
Total games? Ott 3 Tor 4

So? Who won the series? :confused:

[The Doctor]

Originally posted by Ranger68
How about contributing something, other than just calling me a Pansey?

See pg 1.

*shakes head and wlks away*

[Ranger68]

Originally posted by Goober Mcfly
Just to point out the error in your logic:

Hypothetically! In a seven game series, the scores are:

Ott 6 Tor 1
Ott 1 Tor 2
Ott 0 Tor 2
Ott 4 Tor 1
Ott 0 Tor 1
Ott 1 Tor 0
Ott 1 Tor 2

Total goals? Ott 13 Tor 9
Total games? Ott 3 Tor 4

So? Who won the series?

Leafs, four games to three.

There's no error in my logic - I'm pointing to a statistic that backs up the fact that the Leafs outplayed the Senators in the actual series.

In the series you've invented above, I'd say the Leafs (perhaps marginally) outplayed the Senators in four games, and the Sens (mostly very badly) outplayed the Leafs in three games - thus, the result of the series. To say that the Sens outplayed the Leafs in that series would be to assign too much importance to individual game results. Let's say they'd won one of those games 42-0 and outshot them 216-4. In fact, stick that game into a series which has the Leafs winning four games to ONE. The Sens would likely end up winning every statistical category you can imagine. But would they have outplayed them in the series? No.

A series is a sequence of games. This series was very close - four to three. The Leafs won four games. The Leafs outplayed the Senators in the series. It was close, but the Leafs outplayed the Senators.

I'll even throw you a bone and be more specific. I think Belfour fairly soundly outplayed Lalime, and the Senators skaters fairly badly (but not by quite the same margin) outplayed the Leafs skaters.

How's that?

[Ranger68]

Originally posted by The Doctor
See pg 1.

*shakes head and wlks away*

Bye.

[Goober Mcfly]

Originally posted by Ranger68
I'll even throw you a bone and be more specific. I think Belfour fairly soundly outplayed Lalime, and the Senators skaters fairly badly (but not by quite the same margin) outplayed the Leafs skaters.

How's that? Hallelujah! This is EXACTLY what I think. To the letter.

When you said "out-played", I think you mean "out-won". But that point is moot.

Let's let by-gones be by-gones and unite in cheering for the Flyers in the next round! :D

[Ranger68]

Well, don't expect me to make your arguments for you.
;)
Look, I pretty much knew what you were saying - but I disagree with this artificial separation of one or two players - especially the goalie - from the overall play of the team.
Again, hockey's a team sport. The Leafs won the series, ipso facto, they OUTPLAYED the Sens.

Would they have won without Belfour? Well, not with KIDD certainly, so a definitive "no".

Let's hope the Sens and Leafs don't meet again in the playoffs for some years. ... For EVERYONE'S sake.

[plymaker]

GOBER MANG U COULD SEE AT THE 5TH GAME THAT THE SENS LOST WHAT THEY HAD AND IT SEEMED LIKE IT WAS OVER FROM THERE WELL U HAVE TO THINK THAT AFTER BEING TAKEN OUT BY THE SAME TEAM 4 OIT 5 YEARS THAT HAS TO PLAY MIND GAMES WITH THE PLAYERS AND U COULD SEE THAT FOR THEM IN THE WAY THEY PLAYED LAST 3 GAMES SORRY ABOUT YOUR LUCK. YOUR KNOW WHAT YOU GUYS SHOULD DO RIGHT AWAY IS CALL BOSTON FOR THE BEST DEALS ON GOLF CLUBS AND GREENS SORRY ABOUT YOUR LUCK, BUT GO LEAFS GO

[Cardinal Fang]

Originally posted by plymaker
GOBER MANG U COULD SEE AT THE 5TH GAME THAT THE SENS LOST WHAT THEY HAD AND IT SEEMED LIKE IT WAS OVER FROM THERE WELL U HAVE TO THINK THAT AFTER BEING TAKEN OUT BY THE SAME TEAM 4 OIT 5 YEARS THAT HAS TO PLAY MIND GAMES WITH THE PLAYERS AND U COULD SEE THAT FOR THEM IN THE WAY THEY PLAYED LAST 3 GAMES SORRY ABOUT YOUR LUCK. YOUR KNOW WHAT YOU GUYS SHOULD DO RIGHT AWAY IS CALL BOSTON FOR THE BEST DEALS ON GOLF CLUBS AND GREENS SORRY ABOUT YOUR LUCK, BUT GO LEAFS GO

STOP SHOUTING!

[Goober Mcfly]

Fang? Stop shouting about people shouting.

[Ranger68]

I think the points made about idiots on both sides seems fairly well proven ..... Not that there was ever any doubt. ... Fang's obviously an idiot.
;)

[Drunken Master]

I love hockey. I gives people like Ranger the chance to out-smart themselves. Not that much effort was required. ;)

Sens fans and Leaf fans are passionate about their teams for different reasons. Leafs fans are still pining for the good old, pre-Ballard days. It was a hard slog through the eighties, when every possible hockey joke conceivable to the sick mind of man was being made at the expense of the Buds. I don't think the demons of that era will finnally be exorcized until the Leafs win the cup - which is a hard burden to cheer under.

For Sens fans, speaking personnally, we are still waiting for our team to come into its own. This may not make sense, given that our young team with its tiny budget has done phenomenally well over the past few years. The playoffs have never seen the Sens at their best, but the fact that the Sens are consistently in the playoffs at all is an accomplishment. I think that somewhere, far back in the minds of Sens fans, the team is still searching for legitimacy. Ottawa as a city, it always seemed to me, has a bit of an inferiority complex - after all, this small city of less than a million people has to endure alot of wrath from the rest of the country. Toronto does as well, but it is, after all, the biggest kid on the block. I think that, while in reality the Senators have nothing to prove, they and their fans are still suffering to some degree from "expansion team complex."

Now, for some recomendations. If consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, then the Sens could never be accused of being small-minded. Fire Martin. He's an excellent coach, but something just seems to fall apart for this team during the playoffs. I think a little more fire on the bench is needed.

[Ranger68]

Originally posted by Drunken Master
I love hockey. I gives people like Ranger the chance to out-smart themselves. Not that much effort was required.

Such as?

More mindless bashing.

If you want to criticize, say something, don't just be a smart-ass.
You probably can't help THAT, though.
;)
(Oh, does the winkey-smiley face make it all just a joke?)

[Drunken Master]

The winky-smiley face is the internationally recognized symbol for "get over yourself."

[Ranger68]

Ah. In that case, take your own advice.
;)

[MojoRisin']

Damn this thread is too long for me to start now but i just sense a bitter saddened "fan" in Goober. If the Sens won you would be chanting and whooping it up. Time to get over your inferiority complex and move on. You are one of the Sens fans that take shots and slam the Leafs and their fans. Rangers glass house analogy is right on.

[Goober Mcfly]

Originally posted by MojoRisin'
Damn this thread is too long for me to start now but i just sense a bitter saddened "fan" in Goober.
Yep.

If the Sens won you would be chanting and whooping it up.
Yep.

Time to get over your inferiority complex and move on.
Yep.

You are one of the Sens fans that take shots and slam the Leafs
Yep.

and their fans.
Nope.

Rangers glass house analogy is right on.
Nope.

[Ranger68]

Actually, my analogy was dead on - don't complain about Leaf fans when Sens fans have (generally) acted like nimrods towards the Leafs and their fans for years now. You can't complain about Leafs fans chanting "Sens suck" when "Leafs suck" has become a familiar chant in Ottawa - and on hats, t-shirts, bumper stickers, etc. Unless you complained about your OWN fans doing that in the first place, in which case, complain away.

In any case - now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Go Leafs Go! ;)

[MojoRisin']

Originally posted by Ranger68
Actually, my analogy was dead on - don't complain about Leaf fans when Sens fans have (generally) acted like nimrods towards the Leafs and their fans for years now. You can't complain about Leafs fans chanting "Sens suck" when "Leafs suck" has become a familiar chant in Ottawa - and on hats, t-shirts, bumper stickers, etc. Unless you complained about your OWN fans doing that in the first place, in which case, complain away.

In any case - now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Go Leafs Go! ;)

YEP!

[BigBlack]

Goober, why so bitter?

Good luck Leafs, hope the Flyers beat you in 4? Who are you trying to fool? Belfour, boohoo. Leaf fans... blah, blah. I was at Corel listening to Sens fans cheer when Mats and Nieuwendyk got hurt. I was here on Terb when Jim Pansey went at anything Toronto related for the entire season....every single day throughout the day.

The reality is...." IT"S JUST A GAME....I REPEAT, IT"S JUST A GAME"

The Sens lost because they didn't set up their shots and gave Belfour too many clean looks. He can't stop what he can't see. Lalime had 1 bad game the whole series. How about Bonk, Pothier, Bondra, Smolinski, Martin Havlat?

The Sens lost because their hi powered offence / powerplay dissapeared. They got shut out 3 times, and no Belfour isn't God. You'll see in the Philly series that a team who sets up shots instead of taking a ton of no hopers, will score against Eddie.

It's just a game.

http://www.inebriated.cx/health/

BBLACK

[scubadoo]

I love my Sens, but in the end only one thing matters.

Toronto Maples Leafs 4 wins- Ottawa Senators 3 wins.

[BigBlack]

Originally posted by scubadoo
I love my Sens, but in the end only one thing matters.



In the end ...."it's just a game". Nobody died. This isn't a funeral. The Sens players get to play the finest golf courses, have the sexiest women, eat at the best restaurants, and relax while we trudge off to work earning a fraction of what they do. That is reality.

BBLACK

[Goober Mcfly]

Originally posted by BigBlack
In the end ...."it's just a game".Spoken like a true baseball fan.

:D

[Peace4u]

Originally posted by Goober Mcfly
*grasps The Doctor's hand, shakes it firmly*

Thanks, and I agree with all you said. I guess there are two types of fans of both teams.

1. The rabid "I hate anything to do with the other team" fans; and
2. The genuine "I hope my team wins, but if they don't I hope it's at least entertaining"

We seem to be agreed that No. 1 is a pain in the ass. Good luck to the Leafs in the next series. Here in Philly we have far more no.1 fans in all sports.

[blitz]

Originally posted by Peace4u
Here in Philly we have far more no.1 fans in all sports.

"Drunken, battery throwing animals" would be an ideal way to describe the fanatical Philly freaks.

GO LEAFS

[Kev]

Gobber well said in your opening thread.

When i came on this board for the first time i was caught up in the "i hate the Leaf" threads and posts and found myself looking to get my cheap shots in. After awhile it gets very mundane. Being on this board probably has taught me to have respect for a team that i was taught to dislike all my life.

As you pointed there are some awesome players who play for the Leafs as well as the Sens. One who i admire for Toronto if only because he took such a beating is Mr. Tucker. This guy was 110% all the time, and thats the kind of grit that wins games, and Cups. --- Kev

[n_v]

Originally posted by Kev
... Mr. Tucker. This guy was 110% all the time, and thats the kind of grit that wins games, and Cups. --- Kev

How many Cups does he have?

[blitz]

probably as many as you n_vous

shouldn't you be snowballing jiz with Pansy

[Cool Dude]

Originally posted by Ranger68
Once again: THE LEAFS OUTPLAYED THE SENATORS. If you think differently, you're living in a dream world. Ask anyone except rabid Senators fans.
The Leafs were outplayed. Your team won the series. Enjoy it.

PS- BB, it's not just a game. :)

[Goober Mcfly]

Originally posted by Cool Dude
The Leafs were outplayed. Your team won the series. Enjoy it.

PS- BB, it's not just a game. :) Fark, does this mean I have to cheer for Detroit?

[Kev]

Originally posted by n_v
How many Cups does he have?

Not sure if he has any. I was refering to his effort. --- Kev

[n_v]

Originally posted by blitz
probably as many as you n_vous

If I had any Stanley Cups you think I would hanging around here? :D


Originally posted by Kev
Not sure if he has any. I was refering to his effort. --- Kev

That's cool but you also inferred his effort equals a Cup. He has none so the jury is still out on him.

[Cool Dude]

Originally posted by Goober Mcfly
Fark, does this mean I have to cheer for Detroit? Geez Goob, I was hoping you would keep your playoff karma/mojo north of the border for this series. :p

[canucklehead]

It is a known fact people wish ill upon those that they envy..... so i except and understand you wish your team had been good enough to win alas they did not, but they had a good series and it could have gone either way. But one team had to win and one team had to lose.
Good luck next year..... as far as the leafs in four you are a bitter lonely little man :P

[n_v]

Originally posted by canucklehead
It is a known fact people wish ill upon those that they envy.....


Someone called?

[kwong_1978]

How about those Blue Jays?

[n_v]

Originally posted by kwong_1978
How about those Blue Jays?


Yeah, what about them?

[Ranger68]

Originally posted by Cool Dude
The Leafs were outplayed. Your team won the series. Enjoy it.

PS- BB, it's not just a game.

The Leafs won four games.

The Leafs outplayed the Senators.

Sorry.

Feel free to try again, though.

:)

[Ranger68]

Originally posted by Cnd-Guy
Bottom line Leafs won but have another beer if you don't think Eddie stole the series. Even Don Cherry said the Leafs didn't play a single good game. And congratulations to Eddie for doing it

Okay, how many times do I have to F*CKING GO OVER THIS?!

Ed Belfour, last time I checked, played for the Leafs. His play affects how well the leafs play.

How hard is this to understand?!?!

The Leafs, LED BY ED BELFOUR, outplayed the Ottawa Senators.

Period.

End of discussion.

Next topic.

[Ranger68]

Idiots.

[boxers]

easy now...if u watched any of the games w/ an objective eye, you would've noticed that in many of the games the sens had more shots on goal but more importantly, more scoring chances than the leafs. as well, the play was predominantly in the leafs end. did u watch any of the games or r u just a rabid leaf fan who can't take an objective view of matters.
game 5 was actually the best game the leafs had played all series, they bottled up the game and mitigated the sens speed.
yes the leafs won and are deserving of winning the series. belfour shined and yes he is part of the team but the sens did take the game to them, they just didn't convert on their scoring opportunities.

maybe you should take a little timeout and find a happy place.

[Ranger68]

Originally posted by boxers
easy now...if u watched any of the games w/ an objective eye, you would've noticed that in many of the games the sens had more shots on goal but more importantly, more scoring chances than the leafs. as well, the play was predominantly in the leafs end. did u watch any of the games or r u just a rabid leaf fan who can't take an objective view of matters.
game 5 was actually the best game the leafs had played all series, they bottled up the game and mitigated the sens speed.
yes the leafs won and are deserving of winning the series. belfour shined and yes he is part of the team but the sens did take the game to them, they just didn't convert on their scoring opportunities.

maybe you should take a little timeout and find a happy place.

I'm tired of trying to convince people that the goaltender is an integral part of an NHL hockey team. I'm tired of people throwing up straw dogs - like I ever argued that the Leafs weren't outshot, or that the Sens didn't have more scoring opportunities. Please. Argue the facts. Not b*llshit.

Saying that the Leafs were outplayed is sorta like saying that the Habs wouldn't have won so many Cups without Ken Dryden. You don't hear that kind of nonsense about the Habs, so why is it okay to espouse this crap about the Leafs.

If you don't understand that goaltending is part of hockey then there's no point trying to convince you of anything, or of trying to have an intelligent hockey discussion with you. So go have another beer or twelve and continue in your ignorant Leaf bashing ways.

Please reread some of my other posts if any of this confuses you or is unclear.

'Night.

[boxers]

truly as much as i would luv to read ur earlier posts, there are a million better things to do...and even at a million i would find a million more better things to do but thx anyways f/ the invite.

i wasn't bashing the leafs...actually i think domi, roberts, niewendiuk and especially belfour were the difference makers in the series. those guys exemplified what it takes to win this time of the year.

i luv domi and the way he plays but i didn't like domi whining about varadas hit when he pulled a "similar" stunt on hossa earlier in gm 1. domi looked like a superstar in this series but quinn, domi et al have to zip it. stop the whining fans included.

it's that feeling in the pit of ur stomach when the sens pepper belfour w/ (hypothetically) 10 straight shots and don't score, but the leafs go up ice and send in a shot (weak, strong, whatever) on goal, the sens and their fans are on pins and needles as to whether lalime can stop that shot. i sure as heck don't have confidence in him.

u seem to have a lot of frustration built up... may i suggest u check out other parts of this site to help relieve that pressure.

[Ranger68]

Originally posted by Cnd-Guy
LOL, you obviously have no clue of the players that were on those teams with Dryden. Montreal probably would have won those Cups without Dryden. Some games he was lucky to face 20 shots on goal. One season they lost 8 games all year. That TEAM was that good. And you call us idiots ?

Yes I do. ;)

The point, which you obviously missed, is that nobody imagines those teams as separate entities from their goaltenders. The goaltender is a member of the team, and factors in to how they play. How about Giguere and the Ducks last year? How about the Islanders and Billy Smith? The fact is, you can't really say who led whom - were those teams good without those goaltenders? Once again, the point is - IT DOESN'T MATTER!

To say that THE LEAFS were outplayed by THE SENS is ignoring the fact that the best player on the ice - Belfour - was a Leaf, and he BADLY outplayed the Sens.

Clear enough?

[Goober Mcfly]

Originally posted by kwong_1978
How about those Blue Jays? I bet the Ottawa Lynx could beat the Blue Jays.

[Goober Mcfly]

Ranger69: Time for another hypothetical...

Seven games, Ottawa wins 3, Toronto wins 4. HOWEVER, Toronto wins all their games 1-0 having only one shot on goal in each game (which went in). The shots on goal in each and every game are 40-1. The play is in Toronto's end for 59:30 of each game. Now I ask you, did the Leafs outplay the Senators in the above scenario? OR did the goalie steal the series?

I'm not arguing that the Leafs didn't out-score and out-win the Sens. I'm not arguing that, given Belfour's stellar performance, the Leafs shouldn't be moving on, I'm not arguing that the Senators failed to capitalize on many scoring opportunities, but you seem to be stating that the ONLY statistic that indicates a team's performance is the final score. Is that what you believe?

[Ranger68]

hehehe I love hypotheticals.

Let me make it perfectly clear - when you're saying (and all these other people are saying) that one team OUTPLAYED another, they really mean "outside of goaltending".

Well, isn't goaltending part of the game of hockey? Do these goalies not play for the same teams as everyone else? It'd be like saying, "Well, your starting pitcher saved you - he won three of the seven games - we outplayed you."

I just disagree with that notion. In the end, because it makes it far too easy to give props to one player and diss everyone else.

Was Belfour the best Leaf? Sure. No doubt. He was the best PLAYER. Would they have won without him? No. But, take any series, and take the best player from the winning team, and ask the same question. All people are saying in the end is that the Leafs were a goaltending-heavy team in the first round, and their goaltending won them the series. Well, duh! ;)

And, yes - in the end, the MOST IMPORTANT STATISTIC BY FAR is the final result - if you're going to posit that the losing team outplayed the winning team (including goaltending), then you'd better have some pretty interesting occurrences going on.

The real problem here is that people (and you) make a distinction between "The Leafs were the better team" and "goaltending stole the series". There's no distinction. If you want to say that "The Senators skaters outplayed the Leafs skaters, but goaltending won the series for Toronto" that'd be fine.

I dislike the notion that Toronto "stole one" - like goaltending is a shameful side of hockey or something. LOL How about "The Senators skaters almost stole the series, despite the stellar play of Ed Belfour."

[Goober Mcfly]

I'm confused!

On one side you say that the goaltender is part of the team (and I agree) and on the other you say that if the goaltender plays well (despite how the rest of the team plays) then the ENTIRE team has out-played the other.

Non comprendo, senor. :confused:

Comparing baseball to hockey doesn't work. You could have a pitcher who strikes out 27 batters, while the rest of the team did nothing. But then, by your logic, the entire team outplayed the other....

Allow me to state my opinion once again. I'll even use a colour you recognize...

If it wasn't for Belfour's stellar goaltending performance, the Leafs would be golfing right now and the Senators would be playing Philly. The Senators dominated the play for most of the series, controlling the puck, passing, hitting, doing everything except putting the puck in the net (which ultimately was all that mattered). The better goaltender won, the better TEAM (taking goaltending out of it) lost.

I feel like I'm arguing with a brick wall!

[Cardinal Fang]

Originally posted by Goober Mcfly


I feel like I'm arguing with a brick wall!

Go figure.......I'll bet the Sens felt the same way trying to put the puck past Eddie.

:D

[Goober Mcfly]

*reprograms his sniper rifle's Auto-Target from "Medical Professional" to "Clergy"*

[Ranger68]

Originally posted by Goober Mcfly
I'm confused!

On one side you say that the goaltender is part of the team (and I agree) and on the other you say that if the goaltender plays well (despite how the rest of the team plays) then the ENTIRE team has out-played the other.

Non comprendo, senor.

I think you need to understand English better. *sigh* Sometimes, when the ENTIRE TEAM has out-played the other, that doesn't necessarily imply that EVERY INDIVIDUAL COMPONENT has outplayed every other individual component. One team *as a whole* - that is, the ENTIRE TEAM, taken as a single entity - outplayed the other, despite some components of the other team being better.

Clearer now?


Originally posted by Goober Mcfly
Comparing baseball to hockey doesn't work. You could have a pitcher who strikes out 27 batters, while the rest of the team did nothing. But then, by your logic, the entire team outplayed the other....

Bingo! The pitcher, being part of the team, helped that team outplay the other, didn't he? The pitcher's team didn't strike out 27 times. How do you know the other pitcher wasn't just as good, but the players on the winning side were better hitters? HOW DO YOU KNOW DEFINITIVELY??
Are you STARTING to see my point?
In sports, it's very difficult to DEFINITIVELY separate one component of team play from another.

That having been said, Belfour certainly led the Leafs to victory. He did not "steal one" - he isn't being sought for questioning by the RCMP. He's allowed, by the rules of hockey, to try to stop pucks for his team. His play is a vital factor in how well the Leafs perform. Which, evidently, was well enough to *outperform* the Senators.


Originally posted by Goober Mcfly
Allow me to state my opinion once again. I'll even use a colour you recognize...

If it wasn't for Belfour's stellar goaltending performance, the Leafs would be golfing right now and the Senators would be playing Philly. The Senators dominated the play for most of the series, controlling the puck, passing, hitting, doing everything except putting the puck in the net (which ultimately was all that mattered). The better goaltender won, the better TEAM (taking goaltending out of it) lost.

I feel like I'm arguing with a brick wall!

Believe me, Goober, you're not alone in that department. *rolling my eyes*

I agree with everything you said, except, naturally, that the better team lost. <Pansey hat on> The eternal cry of the losing side. </Pansey hat off> You've even started to come to some good points - like, putting the puck in the net is all that matters - although, in fact, winning games is all that really matters.

How do you REALLY know that the Senators didn't just choke when they had scoring opportunities, while the Leafs cashed in on theirs, hmmm? Speculate all you like, but you don't really KNOW. (This is a mental exercise - please don't take this literally as MY point - that the Senators, with the chips on the line, couldn't put the puck in the ocean standing on the beach.)

Sure, taking goaltending out of it, the better team lost.
I'll agree that if you ignored goaltending entirely, the NHL standings and playoffs might look entirely differently.

Thrilling conclusion you've reached.
;)

[The Doctor]

*falls down from the dizzying logic*

[Ranger68]

Not surprising.
;)

[Goober Mcfly]

Just so I'm clear, and then I'll leave this topic alone: An entire team can be judged as outplaying the other because of the performance of a single player even if the majority of the rest of the team's performance was substandard when compared to their opponent's. Right?

[The Doctor]

Ding... ding...ding!

Goober has seen the light!

</sarcasm>

[Ranger68]

Originally posted by Goober Mcfly
Just so I'm clear, and then I'll leave this topic alone: An entire team can be judged as outplaying the other because of the performance of a single player even if the majority of the rest of the team's performance was substandard when compared to their opponent's. Right?

Yes. When one says that "one team outplayed another" you've got to take the whole team performance into account - that is *the performance of every player, relative to his importance to the team*. This does NOT imply that every aspect of that team performed better.

Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately), in hockey, one player can carry a team. Eddie did. He made the Leafs better than the Sens. This is why the Leafs won.

:)

How's this? Did Eddie outplay your whole team? .....
Think about your answer. .....
Okay, got it? If your answer is "no", then why did the Leafs win? If your answer is "yes", then how is it possible that Eddie PLUS HIS WHOLE TEAM didn't outplay your whole team? (Note, again, we're not comparing individual entities on that team - we're comparing whole teams.)

[The Doctor]

The Leafs won. The Sens out-worked, out-manned, out-shot and out-chanced the Leafs. With the exception of Game 1 and Game 4, Belfour was up to the task...ergo the Leafs won.

Are we going to be into round three before you let it go Ranger68?

[Goober Mcfly]

Okay, by your logic seeing as Marian Hossa got 32 shots, he outplayed the Toronto forwards, so the Senators outplayed the Leafs.

Good. Glad we got that cleared up.

[Ranger68]

Maybe. ;)

I agree with everything you've said, to a point (not sure about outworked) - and you left out "outscored" which is only partially a function of a team's goaltender - Eddie isn't likely to score too much.

Yessiree - the better team - the one with Eddie and not Lalime - won. Do you disagree with this statement? Please don't embellish, or answer a different question - "The Leafs (unspoken subtext: with Belfour) were a better team than the Sens (unspoken subtext: with Lalime / Prusek) in the first round. Agree or disagree?"

[Ranger68]

Originally posted by Goober Mcfly
Okay, by your logic seeing as Marian Hossa got 32 shots, he outplayed the Toronto forwards, so the Senators outplayed the Leafs.

Good. Glad we got that cleared up.

Huh? No.
Look, if your object is NOT to be educated by statistics or rational thought, feel free.
;)

The obvious conclusion from your statement is that "Marian Hossa was probably the best forward in the series, but despite his play, the Sens couldn't beat the Leafs (due to the stellar play of Ed Belfour)."
Don't you think THAT makes more sense than what you just said?
LOL

[Cardinal Fang]

On another note.....

The good Doctor and myself caught game 7 at a local bar in Toronto. The atmosphere was electric but I would be remised if I didn't point out the magnificent boobies on the blonde Sens Fan sitting directly across from us. She desperately needed some comforting after the game.

Now back to our regularly scheduled pissing contest.....

:D

[The Doctor]

At least there's one Sens fan out there I could like! :D

Of course based on principle, the skin-tight, mini-t-shirt with the Sens logo on it would have to come off.

[Goober Mcfly]

Originally posted by Ranger68
Yessiree - the better team - the one with Eddie and not Lalime - won. Do you disagree with this statement? Please don't embellish, or answer a different question - "The Leafs (unspoken subtext: with Belfour) were a better team than the Sens (unspoken subtext: with Lalime / Prusek) in the first round. Agree or disagree?"

I vehemently disagree. The Leafs (even with Belfour) were not a better team than the Sens (with Lalime / Prusek) in the first round.

[Ranger68]

Oh, alright then. *rubbing hands together* :D
Why is that?
I'll even go first:
the Leafs outscored the Sens;
the Leafs won the series.
Those are a couple of pretty big guns. What've you got, pardner?

[The Doctor]

Fang: It's a lost cause. We're talking a smokin' hot Sens fan with incredible boobies...and Goober wants to argue with a brick wall.

We've done all we can.

:rolleyes:

[Goober Mcfly]

Perhaps I'm not being clear. Perhaps we're arguing two different concepts.

How well you play the game doesn't always result in a win or loss. Do you agree with this?

[Goober Mcfly]

Originally posted by The Doctor
Fang: It's a lost cause. We're talking a smokin' hot Sens fan with incredible boobies...and Goober wants to argue with a brick wall.

We've done all we can.

:rolleyes: Pics?

[Ranger68]

Uh, not much, really.
What would cause a team that was outplayed to lose?

(Yeah, Doctor, sorry you don't like talking about hockey - maybe you should take the discussion into another forum, hmmm? This is for hockey talk. ... Brick wall, indeed. ... Jack*ss.)

[The Doctor]

Did someone say something?

Nah, I must be hearing things again.

[Goober Mcfly]

Originally posted by Ranger68
Oh, alright then. *rubbing hands together* :D
Why is that?
I'll even go first:
the Leafs outscored the Sens;
the Leafs won the series.
Those are a couple of pretty big guns. What've you got, pardner?
There you go judging the performance of an entire team on how well one single particular player did his job. The Sens didn't score more because Eddie Belfour played well! Not because the Leaf defence played well....not because the Leaf forwards dominated the play keeping it in the Ottawa end, not because the Leafs out-muscled the Senators in the corner...

If you go by score alone, yes, the Leafs outplayed the Senators. If that's all that matters to you, however, you might just as well catch the scores on CNN headline news at the end of each night. Hockey is MUCH more than the final score.

[n_v]

I have been reading this thread this morning and it strikes me how even Leaf fans recognize how the Senators were the better team in the series. The local and natinal media: tv, radio or print all agree that the Senators took it to the Leafs. Outplayed and out hit. Yet Ranger feels otherwise. If it wasn't for a couple of fortuitous bounces the Leafs got (own goal by Smolinski in Game 5) it would be the Leafs playing golf rigth now!

I know Ranger has put me on ignore, but that just shows, and this thread that he thinks he knows all and the rest of us are all idiots. :rolleyes:

[Goober Mcfly]

Originally posted by Ranger68
What would cause a team that was outplayed to lose?Running into a hot goalie?

Have you ever watched a hockey game? Seriously?

[Ranger68]

Originally posted by Goober Mcfly
There you go judging the performance of an entire team on how well one single particular player did his job. The Sens didn't score more because Eddie Belfour played well! Not because the Leaf defence played well....not because the Leaf forwards dominated the play keeping it in the Ottawa end, not because the Leafs out-muscled the Senators in the corner...

If you go by score alone, yes, the Leafs outplayed the Senators. If that's all that matters to you, however, you might just as well catch the scores on CNN headline news at the end of each night. Hockey is MUCH more than the final score.

I'm judging the entire team, yes, - the whole team - I'm not judging every player on that team - I'm judging THE TEAM AS A WHOLE. Sure, the Sens didn't score more because *the Leafs goaltender outplayed the Sens goaltender very badly and goaltending is a big part of hockey*. Ergo, the Leafs were better in the first round (mostly thanks to their goaltender). QED.

You're right - hockey is MUCH more than the final score. It's hits and shots and all kinds of stuff, many or most of which the Senators were better than the Leafs at in the first round. Notably, however, EXCEPT scoring and goaltending (which are, naturally, complementarily related) - two fairly important numbers. ;)

Goaltending is part of hockey. Tough to stomach if you're a Sens fan, I suppose, but there it is.
The Leafs goaltending was way better than the Senators goaltending, leading the Leafs to outplay and outwin the Senators.

I don't think we're getting anywhere.

Feel free to continue to ignore that goaltending is part of hockey, or that a goaltender is part of a hockey team, and that stellar play by a goaltender may make a team BETTER than another team.

The Leafs won the series. If you want to conclude from other evidence (clearly not the total scoring or final result of the series) that the Leafs aren't a better team, and somehow (luck? officiating? home ice advantage? conspiracy??) the better team lost, go ahead.

[Ranger68]

Originally posted by Goober Mcfly
Running into a hot goalie?

Have you ever watched a hockey game? Seriously?

I asked you "What would cause a team that was outplayed to lose?", and your answer boils down to "One very important component of the winning team was much stronger than the other team's."

Uh, then the winning team wasn't outplayed were they? Were they outhit? Maybe. Outshot? Maybe. Outskated? Maybe. Outcoached? Maybe. Outplayed? No.

The better TEAM won. (Since goaltending is part of that team, right?)

[Ranger68]

Look, this is getting a wee bit ridiculous. </understatement of the day>

If your definition of "outplay" involves everything BUT the goaltender, fine. (Perhaps you should, rather, say that the Sens *skaters* outplayed the Leafs *skaters*, but that the team was outplayed overall, (no)thanks to Ed Belfour.) If not, not only do I disagree with the assertion that the Sens outplayed the Leafs, but I don't know how you could come to that conclusion either.

Maybe you should find another word.
Me, I've got one that leaps to mind.
(With another one for The Doctor.)
;)

[The Doctor]

I'm guess that Ranger68 has never been a coach before, otherwise he wouldn't have such a wholistic view of the game. I'm sure if you talked to Pat Quinn or any other coach at any level, they break their team down into it's componenets and match it up with their opponent.

Generally, if you want to win consistently, you cannot rely solely on one component of the team, no matter how exceptional that player/position is. Teams will take a win anyway they can get it, but if you ask them whether they played well enough to win, you might be a little surprised to here them say no. I've watched Quinn at his press conferences after many wins and he's been a grumpy SOB because his team didn't play well, but won. That sets a dangerous precident for the players because they tend to get lax about other aspects of the game and rely on the on player.

While I don't believe the Leafs were lax in their effort on most nights, they did rely heavily on Belfour to shut the door, when they were beaten in other aspects of the game.

Overall a win...definitely not a dominating team performance. Is it a style that will be successful; through four rounds of this tournament...odds are not likely.

[HowardHughes]

Hey...wasn't this discussion about a sen's fan's boobies????

Please, tell me more...

[The Doctor]

Glad to see someone's got their priroties straight.

Although her personality went from bouncy and uplifting to sad and droopy, her breast stood the test of a tough hockey game and were firm and committed to the very end.

[HowardHughes]

Most excellent!

Hmmmmm...maybe I should be going out to these excursions a little more, and perhaps looking into the "quality" of fan...

...now, if they only made calanders of the most "enthusiastic" fans...

[Ranger68]

Originally posted by The Doctor
I'm guess that Ranger68 has never been a coach before, otherwise he wouldn't have such a wholistic view of the game. I'm sure if you talked to Pat Quinn or any other coach at any level, they break their team down into it's componenets and match it up with their opponent.

I'm not sure "wholistic" is a word, but I understand what you're saying.
(BTW, I'm guessing that *nobody* in here has ever coached in the NHL, so your jab is pretty pointless.)
Sure, the game is broken down at lots of levels. Surely, you understand that some of those are more important *to TEAM play* than others. .... ?


Originally posted by The Doctor
Generally, if you want to win consistently, you cannot rely solely on one component of the team, no matter how exceptional that player/position is. Teams will take a win anyway they can get it, but if you ask them whether they played well enough to win, you might be a little surprised to here them say no. I've watched Quinn at his press conferences after many wins and he's been a grumpy SOB because his team didn't play well, but won. That sets a dangerous precident for the players because they tend to get lax about other aspects of the game and rely on the on player.

Ah, NOW this is an entirely different argument.

First off, players and coaches are usually fairly self-effacing when it comes to their play (very few of them, for example, ever guarantee success - for reasons which may be clear to Daniel Alfredsson this morning). You never want to say "I played great - no room for improvement." I'd hazard to say that if you asked *Eddie*, he'd be very humble, as well. That having been said, many Leafs should probably have been pretty disappointed their offensive and defensive play in that series. I think they really did try, but were COMPLETELY outclassed by Ottawa's speed - one more check for the Sens.

Your argument, though, seems to be leaning in the direction that the Leafs shouldn't COUNT on Eddie to play like that and win them every series they play in. That's quite probably true. It's unlikely (though possible) that Eddie will record three more shutouts in each one of the Leafs' remaining series.

I would probably AGREE that the play *of the rest of the team* must improve. That having been said, Eddie may again be the best player on the ice, leading the Leafs to victory, despite poor play from the rest of the team. In which case, the Leafs will have again outplayed their opponents, again thanks to Ed Belfour.


Originally posted by The Doctor
While I don't believe the Leafs were lax in their effort on most nights, they did rely heavily on Belfour to shut the door, when they were beaten in other aspects of the game.

Overall a win...definitely not a dominating team performance. Is it a style that will be successful; through four rounds of this tournament...odds are not likely.

I agree with everything in those last two paragraphs.

Maybe we should just stop now.
;)

[Goober Mcfly]

Each shift: 5 out of the 6 players on the Senators team outplayed their Leaf counterparts (generally...) and 1 out of the 6 players on the Leafs team outplayed his Senator counterpart.

You are saying, therefore, that the entire Leaf team outplayed the Senator team.

Wow.

*wanders over and bangs his head against the wall*

Wow! Pretty stars!

*continues to bang his head against the wall until his head is mushy and his IQ is slightly less than a tulip bulb*

*drool* GO LEAF *drool* S GO! *drool*

Bah! *waves hand*

[HowardHughes]

Maybe you should be focussing on boobies, Ranger!

That is a topic we all seem to agree with - regardless of what team they "support"...

[Ranger68]

Originally posted by Goober Mcfly
Each shift: 5 out of the 6 players on the Senators team outplayed their Leaf counterparts (generally...) and 1 out of the 6 players on the Leafs team outplayed his Senator counterpart.

You are saying, therefore, that the entire Leaf team outplayed the Senator team.

Wow.

*wanders over and bangs his head against the wall*

Wow! Pretty stars!

*continues to bang his head against the wall until his head is mushy and his IQ is slightly less than a tulip bulb*

*drool* GO LEAF *drool* S GO! *drool*

Bah! *waves hand*

Goob, it's unfortunate, but yes - that one player can be more important to the final result, the total team play, than all those other guys. THAT'S HOCKEY!

Again, I know it must be sad to face this reality as a Sens fan whose goalie couldn't have stopped a pregnant beagle from scoring, but there it is.

Yes, the goalie's THAT important, as should be evident today.
;)

[Goober Mcfly]

I have never argued that the goalie's not important! That's obvious!

I argue that a team can outplay their opponents in every aspect of the game and still be beat by a hot goaltender. This seems to not be sinking through your thick Jofa-like skull.

Call TSN! Call CBC! Call The Hockey News! Call Pat Quinn! Call Eddie Belfour! Tell them they're ALL WRONG!

The Leafs actually DID outplay the Senators. :rolleyes:

[Ranger68]

Originally posted by Goober Mcfly
I argue that a team can outplay their opponents in every aspect of the game and still be beat by a hot goaltender. This seems to not be sinking through your thick Jofa-like skull.


I think it's not *my* skull that's thick, my friend. ...... Well, okay, actually, it is kinda thick.
NEVERTHELESS - the fallacy in your argument is very clear above. A team can outplay their opponent in every aspect of the game *except goaltending* and still lose. THAT'S what you should be saying.
And, again, goaltending is part of hockey, part of team play.

Your actual statement above is both misleading (indicating that goaltending is not an aspect of the game) and false - no need to call Quinn, or Cherry, or the CBC, or Interpol, or whoever.
;)

[Ranger68]

Fourteen pages! Nice!
:)

[Ranger68]

Your statement is sorta like "A team can outplay their opponents in every aspect of the game and still be beaten because they were assaulted by Sasquatch." It had nothing to do with *hockey*, of course.
:rolleyes:

[Drunken Master]

Originally posted by Goober Mcfly

Have you ever watched a hockey game? Seriously?

Ranger figures "hockey" is that game Afgan shepherds play on horseback using a decapitated goat as a ball.

Dude, you can stay up all night arguing the sky is puke green, but I guarantee when the sun comes up it will still be sky blue.

Want I really want to know is, who would win a WWE match - Superman, Hercules, or He-Man?

[Drunken Master]

PS - Are you Alien (<>..<>)? You can tell us.

[Ranger68]

No, DM, but unfortunately for you Sens fans, goaltending is part of hockey. Ed Belfour is a Leaf.
:)
Get over it.

And, hey, some of those Afghan shepherds play a mean wing!

[Cardinal Fang]

Originally posted by Drunken Master


Want I really want to know is, who would win a WWE match - Superman, Hercules, or He-Man?

Cage or Handicap match?

[The Doctor]

Originally posted by Ranger68 I'm not sure "wholistic" is a word, but I understand what you're saying.
(BTW, I'm guessing that *nobody* in here has ever coached in the NHL, so your jab is pretty pointless.)
Sure, the game is broken down at lots of levels. Surely, you understand that some of those are more important *to TEAM play* than others. .... ?.[/B]
"Wholistic" is not actually a word, but if you use "holistic" around here we're going to get wrong hole piping in from the massage forum wanting to know pricing on Goober's BS...and we don't need that.

Originally posted by The Doctor
I'm guess that Ranger68 has never been a coach before, otherwise he wouldn't have such a wholistic view of the game. I'm sure if you talked to Pat Quinn or any other coach at any level, they break their team down into it's componenets and match it up with their opponent.
I didn't say anything about being an NHL coach. I referred to Quinn, but said coaching at any level requires addressing all aspects of the game.

I like to think that the coaches are more realistic and not self-effacing. As well as many of the professional analysts who work for the networks take a more impartial view of the game, who unlike the rabid fan, is paid to be objective. And those objective observers, believe that the Leafs were outplayed and were lucky to walk away with the series victory.

If the Leafs are to win in Philly, they will require better efforts from the forwards and defense and not just relative to their round 1 performances, but relative to the Philly forwards and defense that are on the ice with them.

Bottom line, a poor TEAM effort.

[Ranger68]

Originally posted by The Doctor
"Wholistic" is not actually a word, but if you use "holistic" around here we're going to get wrong whole piping in from the massage forum wanting to know pricing on Goober's BS...and we don't need that.

Agreed.


Originally posted by The Doctor
I like to think that the coaches are more realistic and not self-effacing. As well as many of the professional analysts who work for the networks take a more impartial view of the game, who unlike the rabid fan, is paid to be objective. And those objective observers, believe that the Leafs were outplayed and were lucky to walk away with the series victory.

If the Leafs are to win in Philly, they will require better efforts from the forwards and defense and not just relative to their round 1 performances, but relative to the Philly forwards and defense that are on the ice with them.

Coaches are pretty grumpy, for the most part. In any case, Quinn's assessment, and the assessment of most everyone who watched the series, was probably accurate - the Leafs skaters need to play better.

That having been said:

the Leafs, MINUS ED BELFOUR, were badly outplayed - swap the two goalies, and the Leafs are probably destroyed;

the Leafs, INCLUDING ED BELFOUR, were the better team.
The better team won. This is all I have ever said.

I agree with your last paragraph entirely.

AARGG! Here we go again - "Bottom line, a poor team effort!"
*sigh*
You realize, of course, that MOST of this argument is semantic.
If you mean to imply that MOST of the Leafs players put in a poor effort - perhaps. If you mean to imply that the Leafs ON THE WHOLE played poorly - well, they limited the best offensive team in the league to a paltry number of goals and pulled what many people consider an upset. This would imply that it WASN'T a poor team effort, despite the poor effort of many on the team.
:)

[Drunken Master]

Originally posted by Cardinal Fang
Cage or Handicap match?

A horrifying, mind-boggling combination of the two.

[Ranger68]

Originally posted by Cardinal Fang
Cage or Handicap match?

The answer is obvious.
Ed Belfour would kick all their asses.
:)
The Afghan shepherd left-winger would finish second.

[Cardinal Fang]

And He-Man would never go into the corners. He's gay....

[Drunken Master]

Originally posted by Cardinal Fang
And He-Man would never go into the corners. He's gay....

Well so is Superman, but that never stopped him....

[The Doctor]

I'm so\rry but I will not be able to see how you can so staunchly defend your position, nor happy about the way the Leafs won.

The Sens put forth a strong TEAM performance (strong forwrads, Defense, shooting, chances, overall effort), but were let down in a crucial aspect (goaltending). The Leafs put forth a weak TEAM effort (weak offense, defense and effort) but were exceptional in one aspect (goaltending). If I'm a betting person, I'm thinking 8 maybe even 9 of 10 tries, Ottawa is going to win.

In this case, I'm taking my win and now I'll be quiet.


*conceeds last word*

[Ranger68]

Yeah, Supe - total queer. He was going to call his hidden arctic base "The Fortress of Sodomy", but thought America probably wasn't ready for it ....

[Drunken Master]

Originally posted by Ranger68
Yeah, Supe - total queer. He was going to call his hidden arctic base "The Fortress of Sodomy", but thought America probably wasn't ready for it ....

ROFLMAO

Plus, it turns out his girlfriend was actually a transgendered trucker from North Carolina named Louis Lane....

[Ranger68]

Originally posted by The Doctor
I'm soory but I will not be able to see how you can so staunchly defend your position, nor happy abou the way the Leafs won.

The Sens put forth a strong TEAM performance (strong forwrads, Defense, shooting, chances, overall effort), but were let down in a crucial aspect (goaltending). The Leafs put forth a weak TEAM effort (weak offense, defense and effort) but were exceptional in one aspect (goaltending). If I'm a betting person, I'm thinking 8 maybe even 9 of 10 tries, Ottawa is going to win.

In this case, I'm taking my win and now I'll be quiet.


*conceeds last word*

Doctor - nobody said I was happy about the Leafs win. This whole thing would have stopped MANY pages ago if people would stop putting up these straw dogs. I'm happy about the win, not happy about the play of most of the Leafs. Okay? I've said this before, by the way.

I staunchly defend my position that the better team won. Goaltending is a huge part of hockey, a huge part of a team's success. ED BELFOUR LED THE LEAFS TO A DESERVING VICTORY. (Maybe some of them should sign over their cheques to the Eagle, but nevertheless.)

But, now, another argument is put up. *heavy, heavy, heavy sigh*
You wouldn't bet that the Leafs could duplicate that? Why? Because their skaters were outplayed? You'd bet, if the series were played again, that the Leafs skaters would continue to play like crap, AND that Belfour wouldn't be able to duplicate his feat. Why isn't it just as likely that Belfour wouldn't be able to duplicate, but that the Leafs would play better? Or that Belfour would play even better, regardless of everyone else, and put up FOUR shutouts?

You're saying it was a fluke.
Maybe.
That's a weak, weak argument, but I'll buy it. Maybe it was a fluke. This would be one reason a team that was outplayed *including goaltending factors* could lose. Total fluke. (Oh, BTW, almost everyone would disagree with this - that Belfour's performance was a total fluke. Weren't you watching? I didn't hear anyone say that - in fact, they said the opposite - that Belfour's one of the best players in the league, a total money goalie. NOW who's the one who wasn't watching. ;) )

Anyway, this isn't really saying anything - you could say this about ANY series, any time. It's hard to prove or disprove. "It was just a fluke."
Pshaw.

I think I'll stick with my conclusion that the Leafs, led by Ed Belfour, deserved to win, since I have yet to hear anything remotely convincing otherwise.

(Oh, and please don't come back with "I guess he just wasn't watching" or "Everyone else disagrees with you" or "Stop banging your heads against a wall, guys". I watched. They don't, really - disagree with me, that is. I agree that the Leafs, except Ed Belfour, were bad, for the most part. Fortunately, Eddie played well enough that HE, and thereby THE LEAFS, deserved to win. ... Okay?)

[MojoRisin']

Originally posted by n_v
I have been reading this thread this morning and it strikes me how even Leaf fans recognize how the Senators were the better team in the series. The local and natinal media: tv, radio or print all agree that the Senators took it to the Leafs. Outplayed and out hit. Yet Ranger feels otherwise. If it wasn't for a couple of fortuitous bounces the Leafs got (own goal by Smolinski in Game 5) it would be the Leafs playing golf rigth now!

I know Ranger has put me on ignore, but that just shows, and this thread that he thinks he knows all and the rest of us are all idiots. :rolleyes:

Blah blah blah once again from n_v...these are the excuses you have always been saying we leaf fans would use if we lost..LOL you crack me up. looks good on you...oh and Ranger I thought id quote this so you could see the senseless babble coming outta here. You and Goober have covered way more than needed...ive got a headache from it so carry on

[MojoRisin']

Originally posted by Goober Mcfly
I This seems to not be sinking through your thick Jofa-like skull.

:

I always thought Jofa made thin whimpy helmets with little or no substance...sorry Ranger...lol i had to say it. GO LEAFS GO.
Sens...lol lol lol

[Ranger68]

Thanks, mojo - I can read n_v's marvellously intelligent quote.
;)
If he'd been reading he'd know how much b*llshit he's spouting.
The Leafs SKATERS were outplayed by the Sens SKATERS - how many times do I have to agree with this - with everything the media, coaches, players, and mascots are saying. HOWEVER, the Leafs, as a team - said team including Ed Belfour - outplayed the Sens - said team including Patrick Lalose and Josef Prusuck.

I don't expect him to be able to comprehend much of what I'm saying.

Oh, well. He'll get over it.

[wildone99]

Originally posted by Goober Mcfly
Ranger68: What about the entire ACC booing everytime Alfredsson touched the puck?

And get over your unhealthy man-love for Domi. Don't you think it's a bit sad that Domi is regarded as one of the best offensive players in the series?

I've given credit where I feel it's due. To say that the entire Leaf team out-played Ottawa is looking through blue and white coloured glasses. The Leafs are advancing because of the efforts of a very few players. McCabe, Roberts, Nieuwendyk and (most importantly) Belfour.

Give your head a shake if you think otherwise. Yes the Sens lost and the excuses go on but think from the start that most of the Sens fans on here were the first to throw insults towards the leaf faith so go cry in your beer and watch baseball you team is getting ready for golf!

[galt]

I have to agree that the sens skaters outskated the Leafs players but at the end of the day, the leafs won. Was it a Fluke? who knows but we also have to consider that the Leafs won the season series and the Leafs won the playoff series.

Ultimately all that matters is results

[n_v]

Originally posted by MojoRisin'
Blah blah blah once again from n_v...these are the excuses you have always been saying we leaf fans would use if we lost..LOL you crack me up. looks good on you...oh and Ranger I thought id quote this so you could see the senseless babble coming outta here. You and Goober have covered way more than needed...ive got a headache from it so carry on

Mojo - Where in this thread, or any other for that matter, have I cried foul or started going on about meaningless excuses?? At the end the final tally in goals counts and I also know sometimes a team gets breaks and sometimes they don't. And just as the team has to deal with that, the fans have to also!!! Leafs won Sens lost.
BTW you quoting me just so Ranger reads my quotes strikes me as VERY immature by you.

Ranger - I don't hurl insults at you even though I know you won't read them (or can't actually). You think you are better than anyone here and find it necessary to belittle anyone who doesn't share your view. If you had any class you wouldn't repsond to any of my posts, regardless if they are quoted by someone else, in such immature and ignorant ways because I don't to yours!!

</and no I don't give a S**T if he reads it or not>

[blitz]

can we retire this thread!

the series is over and all 3 of you are acting silly. grow up, get a life or at least get laid ya freaks

GO LEAFS

[MojoRisin']

Originally posted by n_v
I If it wasn't for a couple of fortuitous bounces the Leafs got (own goal by Smolinski in Game 5) it would be the Leafs playing golf rigth now!


I know Ranger has put me on ignore, but that just shows, and this thread that he thinks he knows all and the rest of us are all idiots. :rolleyes:

Ummm heres one excuse n_v. lol

immature for quoting you? Um well i didnt do it just for him to read your crap i did to respond to your crap and him seeing it was just a bonus...lol....your passive aggressive comments are too funny man....isnt there an Ottawa Lynx game somewhere for you to watch?

[n_v]

Originally posted by MojoRisin'
...isnt there an Ottawa Lynx game somewhere for you to watch?

1. I can't stand baseball. Burn Blue Jays burn.
2. Didn't we go through this that I don't live in Ottawa.
3. That is not an excuse. Leafs got the bounces, Sens didn't. I aknowledged that already. Sheesh.

[MojoRisin']

1. me neither
2. Oh yeah ill write it down this time
3. It sounds like an excuse to me...and bounces? what bounces?

[Don]

Originally posted by xarir
Unfortunately the going too far isn't limited to normal fans though - Ottawa city council agreed that fans wearing Leaf jerseys should donate to the food bank and the Leafs responded by donating $5000 to the Ottawa food bank. IMHO that was really sillyness taken to a new level.

The booing of players and chanting "<insert team name here> sucks" is normal fan behavior in my opinion.

But I gotta admit that the Leaf jersey food bank thing was beyond the norm and made me shake my head.

As for the Sens... well when it came down to one game that decides all, their goalie gave up 2 bad goals that broke their spirits. bad time to have a crap game.

[Ranger68]

I love how n_v uses me as an excuse to cosy up to "all the rest of us".
LOL
Pathetic.