Disturbing trend - I want it to stop

[Kayla]

Over the past couple of months, for some reason, we have had a very noticable increase of client's coming into Hands from Heaven Spa asking, trying to bribe, convince and pressure my girls into oral sex or intercourse. I have, until now, left it in the girl's hands to deal with this situation by politely telling the client that such services are not offered here. Guys come in here offering girls money for it and a more times than one, attempt to physically force her.

On one occassion, a client grabbed the girl's hair, tried to force her to give him a blow job and left the girl in tears from hurting her in his attempt! Unfortunately, the girl did not tell us in time and the client left. She was found laying on the floor crying. I can assure you - if I would have known, the girl wouldn't have been the person that was in tears.

I post this here for any clients on the board that may come to Hands from Heaven that assume that they can or will get full service that it will no longer be tolerated. When a client asks, or suggests, he will be asked to leave HFH and he will not be welcome here again.

WE DO NOT GIVE *SHOWER MASSAGES*

I have instructed the girls to leave the session and come into my office to get me if they are asked or pressured or there is a forced attempt to receive full service. Your money will not be refunded but you will be asked to leave at once regardless of how much time you have left in your session.

Call an escort - go to other places that offer these services. You risk my establishment as well as the girl's job by satisifying a momentary need. It will not be tolderated any longer.

One other issue....

I can't stress this point enough... when you come in and see a girl and tell her that you are a reviewer.. or that you have read a lot about her... or that you have seen this girl.. that girl.. and she did this or that... it really turns the girl off. In the end... it affects your session. Girl's don't want to hear about your sessions with other girls.. the same as you wouldn't want to hear about their sessions with the previous client. When you tell a girl that you post.. or give her an idea that you are a poster.. she will automatically withdraw in most cases because she feels that you are there to JUDGE her and not there just to have a good time. Some guys think that by mentioning the board, they will receive better service when in fact you are actually ruining your session before it even begins.

Guys will come in here for a session and tell the girl.. 'well I saw so and so and she did this or does this'. That will not make the girl provide anything more for you by telling her that for a couple of reasons.. 1. what you did with the previous attendant is your business, it should be discreet and the attendant doesn't want to hear about who you kissed last with the same lips... 2. these girls work together all the time - they know what they do and don't do so you end up looking silly suggesting it ... 3. every girl is different just as every client is different - if you wanted the same service you should go back to the same girl.

Once again... please feel free to email me if you have any questions - it's funny now that I think about it... when guy's do email me they don't like to divulge to me their posting name (which allows me to know who I am talking to and if I can trust the person by who they are). Even though I am an avid believer that girl's should NOT be told you post and who you are.....even though I am known for discretion on behalf of the client.... some still refrain from mentioning their handles in emails, however, they are quick to tell the attendant they are a poster.. and some guys even tell the girl's their handles! ... lol. Go figure.. :)

[Cardinal Fang]

Well put.

[Nayo]

Time to hire a bouncer. If it was my business, That is something I would do, have some big guy wandering about. Make his presents known to hopefully keep immature turds from even thinking twice about doing such things. There is absolutly no justification for a guy to assault a gal reguardless of the situation.

It irks me hearing about things like this. :-/ I do hope it stops.

[Sheik]

Nayo,

HFH does have a bouncer, they also have cameras monitoring the front door and licneses are recorded yet people still think they can get away with it.

There are assholes in every level of society why should the mp's be exempt from them?

(note, the last comment is tongue in cheek but I think you get what I mean)

[Nayo]

Ahh ok. I honestly never been to an mp. Hope it does stop or at least gets dealt with. Do they have "panic" buttons in the room hidden somewhere for the ladies to use? Just a thought.

takecare,

[SideshowBob]

This kind of behavior has to be expected especially when your website posts pictures of beautiful and scantily clad women with suggestive captions underneath them. I'm sorry but it's YOUR fault that these jerks come to your establishment under the impression they can get full service or oral sex. I've never been to HFH but I'll admit that if I did go there I might be kind of inclined to inquire about 'extras'. Who wouldn't?? The most obvious thing to do, Sweetheart, is not only to complain on TERB but MAKE IT KNOWN ON YOUR WEBSITE!! NO FULL SERVICE AND NO ORAL SEX IS ALLOWED! GO SOMEWHERE ELSE IF THAT'S WHAT YOU WANT! Do that and also PUT A BIG SIGN ON THE FRONT DOOR! Is that so hard for you to understand? You'd be doing yourself and your ladies a big favour by doing something that simple.

[Sheik]

uh bob, there is a sign at HFH saying that sexual services are not available and if you read the damn website you will see that noted there as well.

That kind of behaviour is not expected from anyone but assholes.

And you SWEETHEART are one.

[SideshowBob]

Hey, like it messy, if I'm so stupid as to bend over in front of you, I deserve a kick in the ass. And Sheik, er um......every MP (or most) have signs saying sexual services are not available. That's never stopped me from asking --- I said asking, not demanding. I've received plenty of, how shall I say it, positive reponses and of course, I've received negative ones as well but that doesn't mean I should be kicked out without a refund. I have always been a gentleman and I'm happy to say I've never had a single bad experience with an MPA even when I got lousy service. I simply take it in stride and accept whatever is offered and pay only for what I get. If that makes me an asshole, then so be it. If it bothers this woman so much that customers are asking for 'too much' then she is obviously doing something wrong with the way she is marketing HFH. What is so hard to understand about that??? If some customers just can't get it through their thick heads what is and what is not allowed, then maybe she should make her website as idiot proof as possible so even people like you can understand it. If a website said "If you want more than just an exotic massage -- DON'T COME HERE!" or even more to the point "RUDE, VIOLENT OR INAPPROPRIATE BEHAVIOUR OR REQUESTS WILL BE SEVERELY DEALT WITH" and if a sign in a lobby or on a front door said "IF YOU ASK FOR SEXUAL SERVICES YOU ARE GOING TO BE ESCORTED OUT WITHOUT A REFUND. YOU MAY EVEN BE FORCIBLY EJECTED BY OUR BOUNCER" who can't fail to get that message? Until she does things along those lines, she takes the responsibility (or most of it anyway).

[Ref]

With regards to Sideshow Bob's views, HFH does not have a disclaimer on their website with regards to it NOT offering sexual services of any kind. I know that Kayla also designs/manages the IT website and it has the disclaimer. One can also see that several other websites have the disclaimer. Is there a municipal requirement stating that any massage websites must include the disclaimer?

Please note that I am not here to piss on Kayla, it's just that Sideshow Bob pointed out something that I never really thought of before. Maybe it's something that she may want to include on her website for legal purposes...If so, then maybe Sideshow Bob should get a free massage

[Sheik]

Bob...... I've been to just about every MP in town over the years. All the licensed MP's have that sign saying that "they are a body rub parlour and sexual services are not offered " in one way shape or form.

What you are asking for is an explicit sign saying that people will be kicked out for just asking. Well gee, if you are so stupid not to understand the sign that says sexual services are not offered, then you deserve to get your butt kicked in if you try to force yourself on the girl.

What Kayla is talking about is guys that are demanding and trying to force the girl into offering sexual services. Not guys that just ask and accept no for an answer like you claim.

Now Ref, Vaughan has some pretty strict rules about what it will permit and not. I do remember there being a disclaimer on HFH's site saying that they were a body rub parlour only. I havent checked it out recently but if its not there then it is obvious that the bylaw officer ordered it removed.

[SideshowBob]

It's a very fine line, Sheik. What does it take for people to get it through their heads that it's important to always be a gentleman?Maybe some very strong language and a strong zero tolerance policy is what Kayla needs to implement-- that is, until the riffraff is gone. I shouldn't fault Kayla completely. It is a tough business but she is the only one who can correct the problem. Too bad. I'd like to go to HFH sometime and, no, Ref, not for a freebie. They do have some very beautiful girls there. What I don't understand is how could anyone be mean to one of this universe's most beautiful creations? Women like those at HFH look like treasures...........I'm so glad I'm hetero.................

[Sheik]

Bob,

You dont know the full story, nor do you know Kayla. Until you find out, it's best to keep your thoughts to yourself.

[Kayla]

Reminds me of a sexual assault case that went to court. It was a case of a woman who was at a bar and one of the patrons followed her out and sexually assaulted her. She was wearing a skirt that came to right above her knees. The suspects lawyer tried to turn the case to say that the reason why she was raped is because she wasn't wearing fuckin panties. Give me a break!

It's a common known fact that when another person does not consent to sex, it is then wrong. When a client comes here, and asks if he can get his dick sucked.. the girl politely says no. She will continue to say no, but after the guy has pushed and pushed throughout the session, I have told the girl's they do not have to continue the session and the client will be asked to leave.

I own a massage parlour in Vaughan and I advertise erotic massage - I don't run an escort agency and I don't advertise body slides, nude reverses, etc. But because I have a massage parlour - of course the girl's are going to be scantily dressed. By your version... if a guy goes to a strip club because the girls are naked - not even scantily dressed - they can be expected to take it up the ass?

I don't think that it's my fault that the guy can't understand the word NO.

I think that you are confused by thinking I'm pissed off at guys asking for it initially - I'm not - It is the nature of the business and sometimes the asking is part of the fantasy. I'm angry that it goes beyond asking into forcing and consistant badgering.





Originally posted by SideshowBob
This kind of behavior has to be expected especially when your website posts pictures of beautiful and scantily clad women with suggestive captions underneath them. I'm sorry but it's YOUR fault that these jerks come to your establishment under the impression they can get full service or oral sex. I've never been to HFH but I'll admit that if I did go there I might be kind of inclined to inquire about 'extras'. Who wouldn't?? The most obvious thing to do, Sweetheart, is not only to complain on TERB but MAKE IT KNOWN ON YOUR WEBSITE!! NO FULL SERVICE AND NO ORAL SEX IS ALLOWED! GO SOMEWHERE ELSE IF THAT'S WHAT YOU WANT! Do that and also PUT A BIG SIGN ON THE FRONT DOOR! Is that so hard for you to understand? You'd be doing yourself and your ladies a big favour by doing something that simple.

[MuffinMuncher]

Does the same thing apply when the girls badger ME for extras? Sheesh! I come in for a nice therapeutic massage and all I get is "pleeeeeeeease do it again, you're the BEST ever!" :p

(just trying to inject some levity into the discussion)

[SideshowBob]

Sheik, I don't understand why I should keep my thoughts to myself?? What is this board for? People like you only? And the logic I am using would, I'm sorry to say, be understood by even a child. HFH, according to its owner, is apparently attracting a lot of lowlifes. Not one, not two but enough that she calls it 'a disturbing trend'. Now, do you get it? A trend.......What is a trend? If you don't know, maybe a ten year old can explain it. Why are these types zeroing in on HFH? Have you (and I'm refering to the owner here) asked yourself that? Don't just shrug your shoulders and say, "Jeez, I just don't know!" Give me a break. Check your website. Ask (discreetly) some of your customers what they think. Ask the attendants. Do a little research. Find out how other places are coping with this problem. Have you done any of this or are you just too quick to get indignant when somebody reminds you of your responsiblities as a manager and owner. That is my point. And this is all something you must take into account BEFORE, and I'll repeat, BEFORE anything terrible happens. Why are you acting so surprised? Are you thick? Think about it if you can. You're not doing enough, owner of HFH. For instance, why didn't your attendant scream when the customer got rough? Why didn't you make it clear to all of your attendants when you hire them what they must do if such an incident happens or threatens to happen? Sounds to me like this particular attendant didn't have a clue what exactly to do with an abusive customer. You of all people should know that scenes like this are, unfortunately, part of the risks of doing business. Stop exonerating yourself. You're the owner. Take the responsibility. And if people like Sheik and others want to play Sir Galahad and come to your defense, shame on them. The buck stops with you and if you just can't see that, if you can't protect your people (and it sounds like you can't) nor protect your business, then pack up shop. Even a ten year old can see you're being reactive not proactive. IF you had been doing all along what you should have been doing, maybe these ugly situations can be avoided or if they can't be avoided, the perpetrators can at least be assured of a punch in the mouth or a trip to jail. Do you get it???

[Sheik]

BOB,

you are the one that doesnt get it.

Reread your first post in this thread and see where you went wrong. You arent in the business so you dont know what safety precautions are already in place.

Ever hear of panic? Well some people withdraw when they panic, they curl into a ball and this is exactly what happened in the situation that Kayla is talking about.

She could've kept her mouth shut but more and more assholes are pushing the lines because they are under the misguided impression its happening because someone told them they can get it.

Kayla is one of the most proactive owners that I know. She genuinely cares about her staff and she cares about her clients, except those that try to cross the line.

[SideshowBob]

Ok, point taken. Sorry for mouthing off. Rereading my first post, I should have spelled out my view a little better. It does sound like I'm excusing the behaviour which was not my intention. But listen, Sheik, imagine this. This guy manhandles the attendant trying to force her to perform oral sex. I'm sure he was nude. How could he possibly have done this, reduced to girl to tears on the floor, then calmly got dressed himself, laced up his shoes, and walked out without anyone suspecting what he had done. I mean.........it's mind boggling that he got away with it. Did he have a gun or a knife? Somebody at least should have told him he was banned and to never show his face there again. But he got away. I think that was what made me sort of blame Kayla. I understand the panic reaction but this guy was able to get dressed and leave so very calmly that he got completely away. It kind of makes you pissed off that nobody apparently was able to do anything at the time. Where was the male attendant? At least he could have done something. I mean, it could have been worse - a beating or a stabbing......something horrible. Kayla has to do everything to prevent such a thing from happening ever again. I think that was my original point. I hope this clarifies things for everyone. And actually one more thing, if I may. I think it is sad for customers or clients to go around saying they are posters on TERB or other web sites. To me it sounds like some sort of threat - like, if you don't please me the way I want to be pleased, I'll ruin you on TERB. This is ignorant. Your membership on TERB should be confidential and not used as some sort of lever to get you better, or what you think is better, service. It is almost a form of blackmail and gives all of us a bad name. If you do this sort of thing, at least have the balls to identify yourself and your handle and stand by what you say on this board.

[Sheik]

Thank you Bob.

I have always said to the ladies in the business that if a client tells them they are a "reviewer" then that should be taken with a grain of salt. They should never ever allow a client to convince them to do something that they normally would not do and that if a client ever does something bad to just scream. Within seconds people will be in that room including other male customers.

Kayla is one of the best owners in the business and she does have policies in place and yes it pisses me off what happened. Guess how much it pissed Kayla off as well? But like I said, we dont know the whole story and its not our place to question it. Kayla was posting this as a reminder to the guys that they will have to wake up and stop pushing the girls to do things that they are not supposed to do.

Thanks for understanding my original point.

[SideshowBob]

Actually Sheik, you raise an interesting point. If you are at an establishment and you hear trouble in the next room - say a fight or screaming or something equally threatening, would any of the male customers who happen to be there actually try to intervene? I mean, if you don't want anybody finding out you go to these kinds of places (obviously your SO is one of them) do you want to get involved or do you stay quiet.............I'm sort of sad to say I might hesitate to do anything. It sounds bad and the idea bothers me immensely. What if I hit the guy and break all his teeth? What if he slashes me or punches me in the eye? How do I explain this to you-know-who when I get home? What if a police report is made with my name in it?? Do I ignore all those possiblities and get involved to help an attendant in distress? I hate to think of having to make a choice like that....It could mean the difference between life and death for an attendant.....I suppose if you got involved you'd have to leave afterwards in a big hurry and start thinking of explanations for that black eye you have or that blood on your shirt.........Jeez, it's scary.

[canucklehead]

i have stepped in and will continue to step in if someone says NO it means NO ... end of story.

[Sheik]

Bob,

No matter where I am, if a lady starts screaming I'm there in a flash. Doesnt matter if I'm butt naked with a hardon.

I have nothing to hide so what does it matter if I end up with a black eye or blood on my shirt. Safety of the ladies in this business is the number one priority.

[Marshall Stack]

Well said, Sheik. I admire your candor.

[SucroseFree]

If a MPA is in trouble (and yes yelling is a certain sign of this unless its an S&M place) then I would step in.

1. A woman is in trouble, in a MP or on the street or in your local public library. Please act like a decent human being.
2. The police will be more concerned about the assault, not about charging you as a found-in.
3. If you don't want your name known/everywhere talk to the police about it. They are not dumb.
4. Sure, I could be attacked, but with everyone there, you have a better chance of the guy running away. (And personally I rather be injured attempting something worthwhile, rather than being my normally clumsy self)

Its a hobby, and somethings are more important than a hobby.