Danny Williams and the Canadian flag

[someone]

I’m just curious as to what the reaction here is to Danny Williams ordering the Canadian flag to be taken down from all provincial government buildings (as well the Newfoundland municipalities that followed his lead).

[n_v]

Kinda silly if you ask me. When the Spanish and Portugese come fishing off their coast is he going to send out the Newfounland Coast gaurd?

[sizematters]

Danny Williams...poor little rich boy.
Why doesn't he take Newfoundland out of Confederation?

[Ranger68]

If any of you understood shit about Newfoundland you wouldn't be calling *Williams* out, but *Martin* for so aggregiously breaking a hard promise regarding oil revenues.

If Newfoundland separated, it would be *their* oil.

[someone]

Originally posted by Ranger68
If any of you understood shit about Newfoundland you wouldn't be calling *Williams* out, but *Martin* for so aggregiously breaking a hard promise regarding oil revenues.

If Newfoundland separated, it would be *their* oil.

Well I do know something about Newfoundland and I would say that things are not that clear cut. Normally, I would be the last person to defend Martin but when he promised to end the claw back I really don’t think anyone intend it to mean that Newfoundland would continue to receive equalization even if someday their fiscal capacity exceeded Ontario’s fiscal capacity (which is all they are arguing about).

As far as separation is concerned, you’re right that it would be their oil. However, although a lot of people here like wearing “Free Newfoundland� t-shirts and the like, I think that it is very unlikely that they would do anything as foolish as actually separate.

[onthebottom]

Originally posted by someone
Well I do know something about Newfoundland and I would say that things are not that clear cut. Normally, I would be the last person to defend Martin but when he promised to end the claw back I really don’t think anyone intend it to mean that Newfoundland would continue to receive equalization even if someday their fiscal capacity exceeded Ontario’s fiscal capacity (which is all they are arguing about).

As far as separation is concerned, you’re right that it would be their oil. However, although a lot of people here like wearing “Free Newfoundland� t-shirts and the like, I think that it is very unlikely that they would do anything as foolish as actually separate.

OK, so I know NOTHING about Newfoundland (other than it's a dog breed and Canadian Province). Can you give me the 3 PP overview of the issue - what use is TERB if you can't learn something....

OTB

[someone]

Originally posted by onthebottom
OK, so I know NOTHING about Newfoundland (other than it's a dog breed and Canadian Province). Can you give me the 3 PP overview of the issue - what use is TERB if you can't learn something....

OTB

I didn’t want to get into all the details myself so I just copied the following URL for the National Post’s webpage (I prefer the Globe myself but when I searched their site the only good stuff seemed to require a subscription).

http://www.canada.com/search/story.html?id=4f923c60-d1a5-4842-8932-e15bd215a1ba

[Ranger68]

Originally posted by someone
Well I do know something about Newfoundland and I would say that things are not that clear cut. Normally, I would be the last person to defend Martin but when he promised to end the claw back I really don’t think anyone intend it to mean that Newfoundland would continue to receive equalization even if someday their fiscal capacity exceeded Ontario’s fiscal capacity (which is all they are arguing about).

As far as separation is concerned, you’re right that it would be their oil. However, although a lot of people here like wearing “Free Newfoundland� t-shirts and the like, I think that it is very unlikely that they would do anything as foolish as actually separate.

No, it's NOT all they're arguing about. Williams has said REPEATEDLY that that's not what it's about.

[Ranger68]

Newfoundland is suffering far more than anyone else in recent memory anywhere in this country.
It's disgusting that our PM would lie so baldly. Disgusting, but not surprising.

With all due respect, Albertans did NOT go through a shit-load worse than Newfoundland is now. You've obviously never been there.

[onthebottom]

Originally posted by someone
I didn’t want to get into all the details myself so I just copied the following URL for the National Post’s webpage (I prefer the Globe myself but when I searched their site the only good stuff seemed to require a subscription).

http://www.canada.com/search/story.html?id=4f923c60-d1a5-4842-8932-e15bd215a1ba

I'll read that, thanks.

Any good books on Canadian history anyone can suggest, if I'm going to hobby and "love thy neighbor" I may as well know her.

OTB

[onthebottom]

Originally posted by yychobbyist
What part of our history are you interested in?

Since we invaded you perhaps, or the last 150 years.....

OTB

[n_v]

Originally posted by Ranger68
If any of you understood shit about Newfoundland you wouldn't be calling *Williams* out, but *Martin* for so aggregiously breaking a hard promise regarding oil revenues.

If Newfoundland separated, it would be *their* oil.
Touchy touchy ..hit a nerve asshole?

[n_v]

yychobbyist - just treating him how he treats others on this board.

[Ranger68]

n_v has it in for me, yychobbyist - ever since I called out his crappy team during the playoffs the last twelve seasons or so that we've thrashed them out.
LOL
I've long since put him on Ignore.
:)
You'd do well to do the same.

[Ranger68]

Originally posted by yychobbyist
I've been to Corner Brook and you know, you're right. It sucks there. I won't argue with you.

I should have been more detailed in what I said as what I meant was that our oil industry went through much worse than yours is.

I agree. BUT, the problem is, the whole province has gone to hell in a handbasket since the cod stocks were destroyed - on *Canadian federal* watch, not *Republic of Newfoundland* watch.

It's a bloody mess in Newfoundland, economically, and this oil could really pull them out.

[someone]

Originally posted by Ranger68
I agree. BUT, the problem is, the whole province has gone to hell in a handbasket since the cod stocks were destroyed - on *Canadian federal* watch, not *Republic of Newfoundland* watch.

It's a bloody mess in Newfoundland, economically, and this oil could really pull them out.

The cod stocks were destroyed because the industry was treated like a job creation project. The objective was to keep people fishing and plants running for long enough for people in unviable out ports to collect there EI for the rest of the year. It is sad to see a why of life end, but the truth is that for many years the out ports were dependent on federal money for survival and should have been allowed to die long ago (with perhaps assistance for resettle meant of the type Smallwood offered in an earlier attempt to rationalize the out ports.

[someone]

Originally posted by Ranger68
No, it's NOT all they're arguing about. Williams has said REPEATEDLY that that's not what it's about.

Well I see him on the news most nights and I have never seen him give a clear explanation as to what it is about. However, I did here him say the other night that he as a Newfoundlander before he is a Canadian (elsewhere I have argued that outside of Ontario most of Canada is like that but usually the premers don't say it openly). If you have clear statement where he explains what it is about, by all means post it.

Don't get me wrong, in many, many, many ways he is much better than Grimes was. Indeed, I even voted for Willaims. However, I find his current behavour very questionable.

[someone]

Originally posted by onthebottom
I'll read that, thanks.

Any good books on Canadian history anyone can suggest, if I'm going to hobby and "love thy neighbor" I may as well know her.

OTB

If you want something very readable, I would recommend anything by Pierre Berton. The next time you’re in T.O. (or any Canadian city) you will find a tone of books by him in any bookstore. However, they tend to be about specific events (e.g. Vimy Ridge, the War of 1812, etc.) I am don’t know of any overview of Canadian history he has done.

[onthebottom]

YYC, you got me on the last one LOL,

Sounds like the two volume set would do it. I hope the use and history of "eh" is covered - that and curling are probably the second volume eh (did I do that right).

We have a number of resource rich states, including Alaska where every reident pays no state taxes and gets a 900 check from oil and gas taxes. Resource welfare babies, why not just make something?

OTB

[red]

if the newfs don't want any canadian flags in the province - lets help them - keep all the government cheques with the canadian flag out of the province.

[Ranger68]

red, as long as they get to keep their oil, there are many in the province who would go along with that now.
Great solution.
:rolleyes:

[someone]

Originally posted by Ranger68
red, as long as they get to keep their oil, there are many in the province who would go along with that now.
Great solution.
:rolleyes:

Then why arn't they happy now? They currently get all the oil revenues. Their complaint is that it is reducing the cheques they get from Ottawa

[Ranger68]

Why would the Federal government want to reduce equalization payments to such a poor province?
Answer me that.

[langeweile]

Originally posted by Ranger68
Why would the Federal government want to reduce equalization payments to such a poor province?
Answer me that.

Answer me that..Why should their be equalization payments in the first place?

[Ranger68]

Because the Federal government TAKES money from the provinces, that's why.
Fine - scrap all "equalization" payments. Let Ontario keep what's Ontario's and Alberta keep what's Alberta's and Newfoundland keep what's Newfoundland's.

Why are there equalization payments?
Because there are. It's the Canadian way.

[someone]

Originally posted by Ranger68
Why would the Federal government want to reduce equalization payments to such a poor province?
Answer me that.

And why do you think Newfoundland should get a better deal than the 7 (recently 8) provinces that receive equalization? In fact until Saskatchewan recently became a “have� province, they had over 100% of their oil revenues clawed back (technically only 100% but because their revenues were big enough to significantly effect the five province average used in the formula, an increase in revenues resulted in more than a 100% decrease in equalization for them). I am sure they would have loved Newfoundland’s current deal of 70% never mind the new one the feds have offered. Indeed it has been reported that one reason the Feds are getting cold feet is that Nova Scotia, Saskatchewan, British Columbia and another province have made it known that if Newfoundland gets special treatment, they will want the same. Are you arguing that Newfoundlanders deserve special treatment because they have a cute accent? (Ok, I am being a bit sarcastic on the last point but unless you can offer a better justification for special treatment, it is as good as any).

[red]

Originally posted by Ranger68
red, as long as they get to keep their oil, there are many in the province who would go along with that now.
Great solution.
:rolleyes:

it is a fair and equitable solution. why should they have their cake and eat mine too? they want to leave - the door's over there

[Mcluhan]

Originally posted by onthebottom
OK, so I know NOTHING about Newfoundland (other than it's a dog breed and Canadian Province). Can you give me the 3 PP overview of the issue - what use is TERB if you can't learn something....

OTB

OTB you poor soul. If you have not spent time with a newfy woman, then the true meaning of sex will continue to elude you, perhaps even until you die. It ranks second only to Quebec in this regard.

There is still time man!

[red]

Originally posted by Mcluhan
OTB you poor soul. If you have not spent time with a newfy woman, then the true meaning of sex will continue to elude you, perhaps even until you die. It ranks second only to Quebec in this regard.

There is still time man!


if you aren't offended by the smell of cod

[onthebottom]

LOL, Mc, red,

Now that's funny. I may have to make a trip, I like the Quebec experience...

OTB

[onthebottom]

Can someone explain equalization payments to me? Are they Federal tax revenue redistributed to the Provinces, what's the goal...

YYC, I still need to order those books.

OTB

[someone]

Originally posted by onthebottom
Can someone explain equalization payments to me? Are they Federal tax revenue redistributed to the Provinces, what's the goal...

YYC, I still need to order those books.

OTB

You ask a really big question. I am just going to give a very very simplified answer. First the reference group. It used to be all 10 provinces. However, now they exclude the richest province (Alberta) the four poorest (the Atlantic provinces). They look at the average revenue these provinces get from 30 some revenue sources. They then calculate the revenue each province in the country would get if they charged the average tax rates of these three provinces (their “fiscal capacity�). The federal government then makes payments to those provinces whose fiscal capacity is below the average of these five provinces. They are brought up the average level of these provinces by grants from the federal government. Danny is complaining because his oil revenues bring up this fiscal capacity and thus reduce the payments.

According to the constitution, this is to ensure that all provinces can offer reasonably comparable levels of services for reasonably comparative levels of taxation. In addition, there are economic arguments that equalization can in theory enhance economic efficiency. However, I don’t think many economists think that the Canada’s actual equalization program does this so I will not bother with the details of the efficiency argument. If you are really interested I give you some academic references on equalization.

I hope this helps.

[onthebottom]

Someone,

Thanks, I don't need the details, I think I understand.

So Danny, for example, wants to keep his unemployment payments eventhough he's gotten a job? I would think the other Provinces would have an issue with this

OTB

[someone]

Originally posted by onthebottom
Someone,

Thanks, I don't need the details, I think I understand.

So Danny, for example, wants to keep his unemployment payments eventhough he's gotten a job? I would think the other Provinces would have an issue with this

OTB

IMHO you basically have the idea (although Ranger seems to disagree).

As I mentioned in another post, one reason the feds seems to have gotten cold feet is that 4 other "have not provinces" (in Canada, provinces receiving equalization are usually referred to as "have not provinces") have indicated to them that if they give Newfoundland a special deal, the will want the same thing.

[onthebottom]

Governments crack me up - we'll take your money and buy your vote with it... One of my favorite P.J. O'Rourke lines is: Giving money and power to governments is like giving whiskey and the car keys to a teenage boy.

We do all sorts of illadvised redistributions as well - the farmers are the biggest welfare state we have.

OTB

[onthebottom]

YYC,

Slagging street walking whores, why didn't I read Canadian history sooner!

OTB

[yychobbyist]

Poor Danny boy gave up. His statement that he'd made his point so flags could go back up is a joke. He caved because he wasn't getting anywhere. Nice play Danny. You lost.

[n_v]

You have a link to the story yyc?

[yychobbyist]

Here you go n_v

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050109.wflags0110/BNStory/National/

[Ranger68]

Uhhhh ..... actually, I think he made his point, and the PM has scheduled to meet with him again.
Sorry to burst your bubble, yyc.

[yychobbyist]

If I were the Feds I'd just bet sitting back laughing in Danny's face about his weak-kneed effort at resistance and his histrionics over the issue.

[someone]

Originally posted by yychobbyist
If I were the Feds I'd just bet sitting back laughing in Danny's face about his weak-kneed effort at resistance and his histrionics over the issue.

What about the fact that you had a minority government and needed the 5 out of 7 seats you hold in the province? If you were a politician, I suspect that would also be on your mind.

[Ranger68]

More meetings have been scheduled.
I guess Williams got what he wanted.
:)

[someone]

Originally posted by Ranger68
More meetings have been scheduled.
I guess Williams got what he wanted.
:)

To be frank, I am not sure he wanted an agreement. He scores a lot of political points here by having a big bad enemy to stand up to (the really hypocritical part is that in opposition, he attacked Grimes for similar, but less extreme, behavior). However, given that it looks like Nova Scotia may have one, it will be hard for him to keep up that line and he may have to sign something.

I was amused the other night in listening to people from Labrador phone a popular talk radio show with the same type of complaints. The way they see it is that it is Newfoundland that steals their resources. There was even talk about separating from Newfoundland. Danny may have started something. :-)

[someone]

Originally posted by bbking
All 5 Liberal MPs in Newfoundland are on the record as being opposed to Danny's actions - saying those actions were not helpful. So Martin has nothing to fear here.


bbk

I'm not sure I understand your arguement. It seems to me that that only make it more likely that Martin will lose those seats in the next election. Not only will people in NF be voting against Martin but they will also be voting against their MPs. However, I guess we will not know for sure until the next election.

[someone]

Originally posted by bbking
I doubt that very much - NF has always had the habit of voting for the party that assumes power - and I really don't see the Conservatives winning at the Federal level anytime soon.

No the reason my comment was the poster I was quoting claimed that since Martin was in a minority government that it was not wise to upset the current liberal mps from NF. I simply pointed out that wasn't so.


bbk

Actually, I am the poster you were quoting and my post was not intended to imply that he had to worry about losing his MPs before the election.

Given how well Williams has managed to manipulate public opinion here, I am not so sure that Martin will be able to keep his MPs after the next election. This week, Williams even accused Martin of using the flag as a bargaining chip. I thought that was hilarious but does say something about how well he can play his audience.