Black only schools.

[strange1]

Being in the news, I was wondering what others opinions were.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1107471009904&call_pageid=968256290204&col=968350116795

I won't say much now but isolation doesn't seem to be the best way to deal with systemic problems in a multicultural city.

[Cinema Face]

What a stupid idea. What social engineer thought that one up?

[slowandeasy]

What a stupid idea. What social engineer thought that one up?

I believe it was an educated black man who had the brainstorm. Hmmm segregation bad... voluntary segregation good!!!

And they wonder why they are not allowed to play Quarterback..... i'm joking

Seriously, only a black person or the KKK would say something like this. A white person would immediately be branded a racist....

But this is so dumb... i can't even speak....

[AZN_LOVER]

Dr. Martin Luther King would be spinning in his grave.

"Separate but equal" NEVER worked in South Africa or in the U.S. south, even if we're only talking about schools.

Maybe the issue is remedial help for ANY kids who are struggling.

After all, "1 + 1 = 2" means the same for ALL of us doesn't it ?

How can the answer be misconstrued coz of "culture" as some do gooders would suggest?

... and I don't see how separating black kids from their white or asian classmates benefits Canadian society as a whole. Hell, my apartment building might as well be UN HQ in NYC ! We gotta learn to get along.

Personally I think it's bad enough we have schoolboards based on religion.

[spartan5782]

I believe it was an educated black man who had the brainstorm.

Well, George Dei is black and educated, but being born, raised and educated in Ghana, I think his promoting the black focus schools shows more of a bias for his African background than his stay in Canada.

In anycase, he's obviously looking back at his educational success before coming to Canada and getting his Ph.D. in Toronto, and applying that logic (or illogic) to conclude that the successful education of blacks must involve black focus, black atmosphere and black educators.

First, there's no such thing as "black focus" in education...it's a skin colour. The focus being educated in Canada should be...Canada. I would expect all Canadians to learn the metric system while we here in the States continue our archaic imperial/US customary measurements education. I suspect the language learned would be either French or English or both. I suspect the history to be Canadian, with a bit of world thrown in to round out. So, how do you do all that and more with a "black focus", and why? Certainly there are accomplishments throughout every phase of history by blacks in every culture and nation, but it's within the context of history and all should be equally exposed. You don't need a separate education system to acknowledge it.

Second, black atmosphere...as already pointed out, the world is a melting pot. You do the kids a huge disservice by trying to segregate them from what they must adapt to later in life...and again, why?

Lastly, the black educators. Unless you are importing from Ghana, the black educators he wants to teach the all black students in an all black atmosphere are the very success stories of the system he wants to dismiss. More than likely they came through the integrated system and had white, asian, black, indian...etc, educators teaching them.

I'm not saying the current system doesn't need improvements, and certainly racial bias and prejudice as it exists today is a constant battle, but I think Professor Dei is way off base on this one. The only way to end (or at least narrow) the barriers and economic and social gaps between race and colour is to work together, learn together, eat together, play together, hobby together (hey, I'm doing my part :D )...and it has to start at an early age.

So yeah, he's probably a smart guy and happens to be black, but because he's African, I think a tad biased in his views ...

[Quiettype]

I can see the importance of focusing on students that will struggle with the material due to the issues of English as second language, lack of a home support. One problem this could cause is a further splintering of a unified concept of being "Canadian". School as a socializing element that introduces or reinforces concepts of unity despite diversity may be lost if each social group has its own school.

That and it is just sort of creepy to think that some folks want a school sytem in place that has race or colour as its main focus....
Now if there was a program where ANYONE who was having trouble could go for more personalized care, great.

[slowandeasy]

"Separate but equal" NEVER worked in South Africa or in the U.S. south, even if we're only talking about schools.

Maybe the issue is remedial help for ANY kids who are struggling.

After all, "1 + 1 = 2" means the same for ALL of us doesn't it ?

How can the answer be misconstrued coz of "culture" as some do gooders would suggest?

... and I don't see how separating black kids from their white or asian classmates benefits Canadian society as a whole. Hell, my apartment building might as well be UN HQ in NYC ! We gotta learn to get along.

Personally I think it's bad enough we have schoolboards based on religion.

Just a few points:
a) 1 + 1 = 2 in any country, culture, race, language, alien race etc. The
basics of what is being taught is not necessarly culturally, or ethnically
biased. The equation for Water is still H2O, the laws of physics still hold
true
b) The influx of immigrants from all corners of the world into our educational
system has been a tremendous challenge for our educators
c) Every immigrant may have a different set of values and understanding of
how the system works. For example, people from certain parts of the
world believe strongly that schools have the right to corporal punishment
This type of strict discipline usually exists in the home as well
A child who goes to school has a hard time understanding this laxity and
may not respond to our canadian educational system well. A teacher
who does not have a good understanding of the child's background is
unable to motivate the child, and brands the child lazy or slow.
Unable to get this child focused, the teacher moves onto someone she
can help.
RESULT: Frustrated child does not learn. Frustrated teacher does not
teach, frustrated parents blame it on the system...
some fool comes along and says "we need more culturally focused schools"

HERE'S A BRIGHT IDEA: INSTEAD OF FOCUSING ON HOW THE SYSTEM IS AGAINST YOU, WHY NOT WORK OUT A WAY TO WORK WITHIN THE SYSTEM

BRIGHT IDEA # 2. If the educational system is so great in these countries,
how come the country is still 3rd world.

BRIGHT IDEA # 3... How about focusing on helping the kids adjust properly to Canadian society, and adapt Canada as a home, not just a place where we are staying for a while until we save up enough money to go "back home"

BRIGHT IDEA #4.... How about if the parents stop lamenting about how difficult this country is, and start celebrating how wonderful it is. How about if the parents stop "going home" every 6 months and use their time to learn about and expore our great country.

I know that our system has flaws at all levels (corporate,government, educational etc.), that racism and racial bias exist, that the world is not fair, that sometimes bad things happen to good people..... but I for one would not trade it for any other country's problems.

I strongly believe that a move towards ethnically based schools is huge step backwards.

[Quest4Less]

Until everyone comes to the realization that we are all the same race (the human race), then there will always be idiots and racists in the world.

[Peeping Tom]

No, he is more like an idiot, one that doesn't realize just how outdated this type of thinking is. He takes an imaginary ideological problem and then posits an inappropriate solution. His problem is that the school system uses a bar, with most clearing it, by varying degrees, and some not making the grade. His solution is to remove the bar. Needless to say that doing so would have deleterious and unintended consequences some years down the road. Bars are everywhere in life ... of course these idiots don't see this until its too late, then of course its the "system" or the "man" holding things back once again ... yawn.

The dolt conveniently sidesteps the real problem - that being the attitude of the students. Anyone wanting to learn will, even if it is merely learning how to pass courses, something good enough to get one through even a university program. What is being shown in all this is that when one wants to be an idiot, success is often rapid.




So yeah, he's probably a smart guy and happens to be black, but because he's African, I think a tad biased in his views ...

[jwmorrice]

No, he is more like an idiot, one that doesn't realize just how outdated this type of thinking is. He takes an imaginary ideological problem and then posits an inappropriate solution. His problem is that the school system uses a bar, with most clearing it, by varying degrees, and some not making the grade. His solution is to remove the bar. Needless to say that doing so would have deleterious and unintended consequences some years down the road. Bars are everywhere in life ... of course these idiots don't see this until its too late, then of course its the "system" or the "man" holding things back once again ... yawn.

The dolt conveniently sidesteps the real problem - that being the attitude of the students. Anyone wanting to learn will, even if it is merely learning how to pass courses, something good enough to get one through even a university program. What is being shown in all this is that when one wants to be an idiot, success is often rapid.
Interesting that in the case of single-sex schools, both males and females do better than in co-ed settings. See, for example, http://www.singlesexschools.org/research-singlesexvscoed.htm# Moreover, there's nothing I've seen to suggest that that there are any deleterious consequences that flow later from having divided up students by gender. Perhaps black students too would do better in a setting where they were off by themselves and better still where they were also divided up by gender.

A little less rhetoric and a little more research may reveal that this fellow Dei isn't such an idiot.

jwm

[Peeping Tom]

The issue here isn't coed or not - it doesn't serve to justify his position and my attack is based on his refusal to back his position. His position is a well known ideological stance of the 80's, one rejected by this society, a position which would argue in turn that since tests return results he finds unpleasant, they are discriminatory and must be eliminated. The guy is a dinosaur, one at odds with a society that has moved beyond his narrow viewpoint.

[jwmorrice]

The issue here isn't coed or not - it doesn't serve to justify his position and my attack is based on his refusal to back his position... Perhaps you can help me here. I don't know what he's written on the subject. What's he say?

jwm

[Chiefofstaff]

Stupid idea, that will just make things worst....

[strange1]

.... His problem is that the school system uses a bar, with most clearing it, by varying degrees, and some not making the grade. His solution is to remove the bar. ...

You must have read something I didn't see. The idea isn't to remove the bar but to provide a different kind of support to get the students over the bar. It's not an idea I'd support. It would make more sense to invest the money needed to help students in the significant number of Toronto and area schools where white students are already in a minority, coincidently, many of the same schools where the families have below average incomes.

[onthebottom]

This is a bad idea, show me a city where black students don't lag whites in graduation rates and test scores. This is not a school issue but a socio-economic issue. In the US 70% of black children are born out of wedlock, 60% grow up in fatherless households and 60% of single black mothers earn less than 25,000 per year. These children don't have a chance - expanded head start programs and a bit of responsibility are what is needed.

Flame away.

OTB

[jwmorrice]

This is a bad idea, show me a city where black students don't lag whites in graduation rates and test scores. This is not a school issue but a socio-economic issue. In the US 70% of black children are born out of wedlock, 60% grow up in fatherless households and 60% of single black mothers earn less than 25,000 per year. These children don't have a chance - expanded head start programs and a bit of responsibility are what is needed.

Flame away.

OTBThis is a very weird thread as no one seems to know what the rationale was for the original proposal. Not even Peeping Tom! I, for one, would at least like to know what it was. But since no one seems to have the scoop, there's not much anyone for anyone to support or critique.

I'll just take issue with one thing that you wrote: "This is not a school issue but a socio-economic issue." Well, there certainly can be other factors at play. I think you might find this interview concerning test performance rather interesting: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/sats/interviews/steele.html

jwm

[onthebottom]

This is a very weird thread as no one seems to know what the rationale was for the original proposal. Not even Peeping Tom! I, for one, would at least like to know what it was. But since no one seems to have the scoop, there's not much anyone for anyone to support or critique.

I'll just take issue with one thing that you wrote: "This is not a school issue but a socio-economic issue." Well, there certainly can be other factors at play. I think you might find this interview concerning test performance rather interesting: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/sats/interviews/steele.html

jwm

I read part of the article (but not all) and think I have the jist of it, I would offer a quote from early in the article:




Why are the socio-economic model and the black cultural explanation not really sufficient to explain it in your opinion, or are they?

I think they are. I think it's difficult to quantify the extent to which a difference is cultural or socioeconomic in a given sample, or differences in the way in which students are treated in schools and so forth. That's what's hard. And it's hard to definitively assign a degree of causality to one of those causes or another. And that is what makes the debate go on and on with a lot of attention focused on the different causes of this gap.

I can imagine an external pressure, in the form of stereotype, would have a negative effect, but at the end of the day 1+1=2 no matter your background.

OTB

[jwmorrice]

I read part of the article (but not all) and think I have the jist of it, I would offer a quote from early in the article:




Why are the socio-economic model and the black cultural explanation not really sufficient to explain it in your opinion, or are they?

I think they are. I think it's difficult to quantify the extent to which a difference is cultural or socioeconomic in a given sample, or differences in the way in which students are treated in schools and so forth. That's what's hard. And it's hard to definitively assign a degree of causality to one of those causes or another. And that is what makes the debate go on and on with a lot of attention focused on the different causes of this gap.

I can imagine an external pressure, in the form of stereotype, would have a negative effect, but at the end of the day 1+1=2 no matter your background.

OTB
OTB: Well, it's certainly a different sort of socio-economic explanation in that the psycological mechanism discussed in the article can affect blacks, women, white males, etc. I think we have to be careful not to be reductionist in our views.

jwm

[onthebottom]

JWM,

My point was that if you start off poor and from an unstable home you have less of a chance of being successful. Are there other factors, yes, having stupid parents is not much help, drugs don't help, crime doesn’t help..... I don't think separate schools would help with any of these issues.

OTB

[strange1]

jwm,

I believe the idea of the original proposal was to get students to buy into valuing their education. Some cultural groups are seen to succeed based on the view that their culture and their family places on education. There is a common belief that many black students growing up in North America, especialy those from disadvantaged socio-economic backgrounds) do not place their values in the same places. By providing a black focused education with black teachers, it is hoped that students will see successful black role models and see a history of blacks who have valued and benefited from education.

...not that I agree with it.

[Peeping Tom]

There was a large amount of sociological literature on this and similar topics in the 80's and early 90's. I was surprised to see this currently as this particular ideology has been discredited. It follows an internal consistency having a type of logic pattern: white society=evil, therefore white institutions =wrong, therefore "insert race here"!=compatible with said institutions, therefore institutions=wrong. Thus, white exams are bad, black exams would deal more with knowing the magazine capacity of a blundernine, therefore culturally appropriate. In a similar vein, black crime problems disappear when wrongful white ideas such as the criminal justice system are prevented from entering the ghetto.





You must have read something I didn't see. The idea isn't to remove the bar but to provide a different kind of support to get the students over the bar.

jwm: oddly enough I wrote this and posted it before seeing your comment following the post I addressed. Here it is:

It must be noted that the aim of the major proponents of said ideologies is to entrench their interests, not those they claim to "help".



This is a very weird thread as no one seems to know what the rationale was for the original proposal. Not even Peeping Tom! I, for one, would at least like to know what it was. But since no one seems to have the scoop, there's not much anyone for anyone to support or critique.

[jwmorrice]

Tom:

You sound familiar with sociological topics. Do you know of any empirical studies dealing with the subject of separate schools for blacks and educational/test outcomes? The best I could come up with was the analogous separation of the sexes which does seem to work in favour of achievement.

I'm not pro or con on 'black schools' but I like to know a little bit about an idea before I dismiss it. A consensus in the field against Dei's proposal would put this thread on ice.

By the way, I took a look at Dei's UofT website: http://www.oise.utoronto.ca/depts/sese/dei.htm Unless I'm missing something, there doesn't seem to be anything particularly original in his work.

JW

[phogNphriction]

Originally posted by Quest4Less
reality

Until everyone comes to the realization that we are
all the same race (the human race), then there will
always be idiots and racists in the world.

BRAVO! Everyone read this again and repeat after me:

"Skin colours do not distinguish between races-
they are secondary sexual characteristics.
Races DO NOT exist.
They are unscientific social constructions.
There is no race but the Human Race (a species).
Diversity among members of the species is
necessary and adaptive."

Or, if you are suspicious of the scientific
approach to this issue, perhaps you would be more
confortable with a moralistic point-of-view:

"Pride is a DEADLY SIN- Pride in one's race or
the colour of one's skin, no less so..."

Stupid, stupid, stupid idea.

Gender and race are simply not equivalent types of
group characteristics, which is one of the reasons
that gender is so much easier to study, while
race remains difficult to even define without
disagreement/acrimony/bias.

[strange1]

"Race" has a commonly accepted meaning and therefore the usage is justified. If only people realized that we're all homo sapien sapien, it would be a better world. (Then we would only have to worry about religous bigotry, classism, and the rest)

[papasmerf]

Look, anytime you make a seperation in color, religion or nation or origin; you subjugate equality. Has been a very bad idea in the USA and is just as bad in Canada.

[jwmorrice]

Look, anytime you make a seperation in color, religion or nation or origin; you subjugate equality. Has been a very bad idea in the USA and is just as bad in Canada.Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now would someone please provide some empirical evidence. Pretty please! :p

jwm

[papasmerf]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now would someone please provide some empirical evidence. Pretty please! :p

jwm

Segregation in any form breeds comtempt. It convinces one group they are better than another.

[Asterix]

Segregation in any form breeds comtempt. It convinces one group they are better than another.

The most succinct post I have read from you in a while. ;)

[jwmorrice]

Segregation in any form breeds comtempt. It convinces one group they are better than another.Doesn't seem to be so with girls only schools, does it?

jwm

[red]

Doesn't seem to be so with girls only schools, does it?

jwm
you don't spend time with women- they all think they are better than us

[jwmorrice]

you don't spend time with women- they all think they are better than usGee, that's the closest thing to empiricism that I've seen on this thread! :p

jwm

[papasmerf]

Doesn't seem to be so with girls only schools, does it?

jwm


Even though the concept is to remove distraction you will find it does breed predjudices

[jwmorrice]

Even though the concept is to remove distraction you will find it does breed predjudicesWhy not just say, "I hold my truths to be self-evident..." :p

jwm

[papasmerf]

Why not just say, "I hold my truths to be self-evident..." :p

jwm

why not just ask your moma why you are like this?

[jwmorrice]

why not just ask your moma why you are like this?Brilliant retort! It must be wonderful to be so sure of your own beliefs that no test of their validity is desired or required. Empiricism? Science? Just chuck'em. The answers are already known.

But, I'm just repeating myself here. If I come across any evidence, pro or con, I'll come back to this thread and post it. 'Til then, I'm moving on.

jwm