Death penalty or not

[langeweile]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,148314,00.html

The question of death penalty is a tough one for me. Just when I thought it is wrong for a state to kill anybody, along comes this punk.
I used to live in the very same area, it just creeps me out, and makes me mad at the same time..
If convicted this guy should fry. Since he lives in TX he probably will..

[xarir]

Send him to Australia!

But seriously, I think the death penalty has its place but I'm at a loss to clearly define its application. For instance, in the case of Paul Bernardo I think the death penalty would have been fair. There was another fellow in Belgium who was even worse than Bernardo - here too I think death penalty was just.

But where does one draw the line? When do you use death penalty and when don't you? That's the problem I struggle with.

[onthebottom]

In my view there is no place for the death penalty.

falls off chair that YYC has taken the liberal position yet again

If there was such a thing as life without parole then who would care.

OTB

[tolkienreader]

Give death to those who by their actions have asked for it.

Let those live who are yet innocent. The unborn.

From an Atheist.

[langeweile]

falls off chair that YYC has taken the liberal position yet again

If there was such a thing as life without parole then who would care.

OTB

I was always wondering how one could be against the death penalty, but pro-abortion?

[papasmerf]

and the contrary is also true - how can you be in favour of the death penalty and oppose abortion? As I've said on this board more than once before, consistency is an impossibility.


Pretty easy answer to that one. If convicted of a capital crime a person stands to get the death penalty. What crime has the unborn child comitted and when was there a trial finding this unborn guilty of a capital crime?

[Asterix]

http://library.thinkquest.org/16665/deathpenalty.shtml

Go China! :eek:

I just don't think any of us have the right to judge the death of others... but at the same time I don't want to be paying for a life sentence of a serial child molester or rapist either.

Amazing how this topic keeps coming up every few months or so. Even setting aside the moral issue of the state taking a life, I'm opposed to the death penalty because it doesn't work.

It costs far more to prosecute a capital punishment case then it does to keep an inmate in life imprisonment.

There is no clear evidence that the dealth penalty deters crime. In fact, states without the death penalty have some of the lowest homicide rates, states with the death penalty the highest.

Since the early seventies there have been over 100 inmates on death row in the US ultimately exonerated by new evidence. It would be impossible to believe there weren't also some who had no one to take up there cause and were wrongfully executed.

[red]

only if their defence is

my bad

[mrpolarbear]

Sometimes i wonder why i am against the death penalty after seeing what some monsters have done , but then i think of where i live and we have seen 13 people walk off of death row after the had been wrongfully covicted. Death is final, you make a mistake you cant go back and make it right. I am anxious to see how The Supreme Court rules this spring when it comes to states killing juvenile offenders.

[Choron]

The death penalty has its place... People who are scum should die... simple as that... Prison hardly ever produces changes in people... haha

[Asterix]

And thank you, Nelson.

[papasmerf]

yychobbyist (http://www.terb.ca/vbulletin/member.php?u=27159) vbmenu_register("postmenu_819881", true);
Bemused

Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Living diagonally in a parallel universe
Posts: 3,471


http://www.terb.ca/vbulletin/images/icons/icon1.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by papasmerf
Pretty easy answer to that one. If convicted of a capital crime a person stands to get the death penalty. What crime has the unborn child comitted and when was there a trial finding this unborn guilty of a capital crime?



The taking of a life is the taking of a life as far as I can tell.
__________________



Now with that logic you believe that ABORTIONISTS are serial killers. As such should they be allowed to walk the streets just waiting for the next shance to take innocent life? BTW I never expected you to see abortion as killing. I am impressed.
]

[Hard Idle]

Why is the death penalty treated like any other sentence?

As the laws are applied today, I'd have to say I'm opposed to capital punishment in almost every instance. There is way too much room to convict the wrong person and then kill them.

But if there were a much higher standard of proof required to seek and get the death penalty, I could accept it in certain cases. It would be applied only to violent repeat offenders, and require not just proof beyond a reasonable doubt, but proof beyond any plausable doubt. Example:

A repeat offender walks into a mall with an assault riffle and shoots people at random without provocation. It is caught on camera, and 47 witnesses of all possible backgrounds ID the same guy and give the same story. None of the witnesses has any dealings or history with the suspect. Case closed - zero chance of mistaken identity, witness prejudice or over-ambitious prosecutors embelishing the case.

Anyting much fuzzier than that, and you have to leave room to prove a guy innocent, or less guilty down the road.

[papasmerf]

Why is the death penalty treated like any other sentence?

As the laws are applied today, I'd have to say I'm opposed to capital punishment in almost every instance. There is way too much room to convict the wrong person and then kill them.

But if there were a much higher standard of proof required to seek and get the death penalty, I could accept it in certain cases. It would be applied only to violent repeat offenders, and require not just proof beyond a reasonable doubt, but proof beyond any plausable doubt. Example:

A repeat offender walks into a mall with an assault riffle and shoots people at random without provocation. It is caught on camera, and 47 witnesses of all possible backgrounds ID the same guy and give the same story. None of the witnesses has any dealings or history with the suspect. Case closed - zero chance of mistaken identity, witness prejudice or over-ambitious prosecutors embelishing the case.

Anyting much fuzzier than that, and you have to leave room to prove a guy innocent, or less guilty down the road.

Your descriuption of zellots trying a case reminds me of OJs trial.

[americanson]

Yes absolutely necessary. Especially in the sick joke of a case (in Cali. where else) of Quadruple murderer Kevin Cooper. It's been about as year now since he escaped the needle by a few hours and despite the overwhelming evidence against him both he and his supporters claim he was "framed" Worse the courts have clearly fallen for it even if Governor Arnie, And Gray Davis before him haven't.

[Cardinal Fang]

I was always wondering how one could be against the death penalty, but pro-abortion?

And equally odd is how someone could be "Pro-Life" and support the Death Penalty. Not meant as a comment to you Langeweile but as a general comment.

I used to support the death penalty because I honestly believed in an "eye for an eye." But as I got older (hard to believe I know) I realized certain truths.

1) The death penalty does not reduce violent crime.
2) Minorities are more likely to receive the death penalty for the same crimes.
3) Innocent people have been put to death.

I believe in Life without parole with hard labour. I believe in being punished for your crimes. In my opinion being put to death lets you off the hook.

[onthebottom]

and the contrary is also true - how can you be in favour of the death penalty and oppose abortion? As I've said on this board more than once before, consistency is an impossibility.

Ah, kill guilty people save innocent people......

As I said, I'm fairly indifferent to the death penalty for several reasons:

It is not a deterrent in the US because it's application is so random (as opposed to Singapore where, if you are caught with drugs you're dead within the week)

It's more expensive than prison for life because the damn lawyers waste so much time.

Convicted does not always mean guilty, it's very hard to release someone you've put to death.

The only real advantage is that it pisses the Europeans off ;-)

OTB

[happygrump]

The only real advantage is that it pisses the Europeans off ;-)

OTB

Hey... no fair! I used to be anti-death-penalty, but now you've got me changing my mind. Anytime we can get under the skin of irritating Frenchmen can't be all bad... :D

[Hard Idle]

Your descriuption of zellots trying a case reminds me of OJs trial.

It's a fact that many prosecutors see their post as a springboard to a bigger political career. In many jurisdictions, DA's & judges are elected, so even those who wish to stay within the legal system can be tempted to go for a big score in a highly publicized case.

Higher standards should be required for Capital Punishment. Ones which leave no room for a mistakes or emotions, and rule out even th most far-fetched conspiracy theory.

It's bad enough that somebody's life is in the hands of a jury to begin with. The very fact that votes on guilt & inocence may be cast by people who give their VISA #'s to TV psychics is scarry enough. Then you have mob mentalities in emotional trials were jurors are browbeaten with testimonies of sobbing relatives and touchy home movies, against a defendant who is usually unsympathetic.

[Cardinal Fang]

The only real advantage is that it pisses the Europeans off ;-)

OTB

LOL!

I love this quote.

:D

[Cinema Face]

Those convicted of 1st degree murder should be put away for life, but they also should get a tissue scan and the data should be in a world wide database. That way if someone somewhere needs a kidney, heart, or any other life saving organ, then the felon becomes a living organ donor.

This is capital punishment that is an easier sell to the bleeding hearts. If you're responsible for taking a life then you're responsible for saving a life. That's your debt to society.

[papasmerf]

Those convicted of 1st degree murder should be put away for life, but they also should get a tissue scan and the data should be in a world wide database. That way if someone somewhere needs a kidney, heart, or any other life saving organ, then the felon becomes a living organ donor.

This is capital punishment that is an easier sell to the bleeding hearts. If you're responsible for taking a life then you're responsible for saving a life. That's your debt to society.

Are you willing to pay for a 19 year old to go into a life sentence and live for 82 years?

[someone]

Those convicted of 1st degree murder should be put away for life, but they also should get a tissue scan and the data should be in a world wide database. That way if someone somewhere needs a kidney, heart, or any other life saving organ, then the felon becomes a living organ donor.

This is capital punishment that is an easier sell to the bleeding hearts. If you're responsible for taking a life then you're responsible for saving a life. That's your debt to society.
It has been reported that China does something similar .

[Kristine]

Those convicted of 1st degree murder should be put away for life, but they also should get a tissue scan and the data should be in a world wide database. That way if someone somewhere needs a kidney, heart, or any other life saving organ, then the felon becomes a living organ donor.

This is capital punishment that is an easier sell to the bleeding hearts. If you're responsible for taking a life then you're responsible for saving a life. That's your debt to society.


as for if they are in jail for years and years.... and my tax dollars have to pay for it... so be it... it is doing that right now.... but take away the luxeries such as telephones, computers and televisions..... and let them sit and wait and wait...

just my two cents :rolleyes:

[yychobbyist]

It has been reported that China does something similar .

Yeah, and the Chinese are such humanitarians that when they put a bullet in the back of your head they bill your family for the bullet just to remind them to shut up and not bitch too loudly about your death.

[onthebottom]

Are you willing to pay for a 19 year old to go into a life sentence and live for 82 years?

It's cheaper than paying the slime ball lawyers to argue over it for 10 years.

OTB

[yychobbyist]

Ever notice how lawyers are always "slimeballs" and "money grubbing"?

Let me ask you lawyer-haters a question. Do you know why Shakespeare wrote "first thing, let's kill all the lawyers"? Do you know what it means in the context of the play?

[someone]

Yeah, and the Chinese are such humanitarians that when they put a bullet in the back of your head they bill your family for the bullet just to remind them to shut up and not bitch too loudly about your death.
It seems to me that one of the best arguments against the death penalty is the type of countries that practice it. Ok, I'm being a bit sarcastic here. However, you do find very few democratic developed countries on the list.

[yychobbyist]

It seems to me that one of the best arguments against the death penalty is the type of countries that practice it. Ok, I'm being a bit sarcastic here. However, you do find very few democratic developed countries on the list.

Yup, the U.S. keeps some pretty "good" company.

[papasmerf]

It's cheaper than paying the slime ball lawyers to argue over it for 10 years.

OTB

Can you say reform and 3 appeals???
BTW the state does not pay for them

[red]

Yeah, and the Chinese are such humanitarians that when they put a bullet in the back of your head they bill your family for the bullet just to remind them to shut up and not bitch too loudly about your death.


yes but the bullets are manufactured in China- so the cost is low

[red]

and yet- we trade with them and turn a blind eye to their human rights abuses. it will be great when we are all reduced to that level of existence for the betterment of walmart

[onthebottom]

Can you say reform and 3 appeals???
BTW the state does not pay for them

Well, it does if the convict can't afford a lawyer, it pays the judges and it pays the prosecuting attorneys. I'd be willing to bet that it costs more to execute someone than it does to keep them in prison for life.

OTB

[onthebottom]

Ever notice how lawyers are always "slimeballs" and "money grubbing"?

.......

Yes, I have noticed that.

OTB

[red]

Hey, my ppl are industrious and without em, how much do you think our day to day living would be and what kind of dollar stores would we have. As for turning a blind eye to human rights abuses, ahhhhh, how many ppl did US kill for an unjustified war. Life goes on.. Plus China maybe puts to death 2 - 4 thousand ppl a year, with 1.3 billion ppl there, I consider it population control. :D


I hope you are kidding. Its not the chinese people, its the government - military complex which suppresses them

[Asterix]

Well, it does if the convict can't afford a lawyer, it pays the judges and it pays the prosecuting attorneys. I'd be willing to bet that it costs more to execute someone than it does to keep them in prison for life.

OTB

It does. In some states two or three times more expensive and in danger of breaking their budgets because of it.

http://peaceb2you.org/death_cost_penalty.htm

[slowpoke]

It does. In some states two or three times more expensive and in danger of breaking their budgets because of it.

http://peaceb2you.org/death_cost_penalty.htm

So Texas must really be in the poorhouse after the 150 or so executions during Dubya's watch alone. I was expecting to see Texas mentioned in the above article about the cost of executing prisoners but there was only a sentence or so. Maybe they keep their costs down the same way they do in Louisiana - by simply not paying the public defence lawyers representing the accused:

"..Several lawyers in Louisiana are asking courts to postpone death penalty cases until there is sufficient funding to pay the attorneys. Because of a loss in revenue, private attorneys appointed by the court to handle death penalty cases as well as other criminal cases have not been paid in a year. The lawyers who handle these cases are concerned about the consequences for their clients: "I think poor people get poor representation. They are represented by overworked public defenders and private lawyers who aren't getting paid. That is not equal justice." (The Advocate, 4/5/99).."

What lawyer could afford to put up a proper defence of his client knowing he may never be paid? No wonder they throw these cases involving poor defendants. They'll go broke if they don't. This is insanity!

[Asterix]

So Texas must really be in the poorhouse after the 150 or so executions during Dubya's watch alone. I was expecting to see Texas mentioned in the above article about the cost of executing prisoners but there was only a sentence or so. Maybe they keep their costs down the same way they do in Louisiana - by simply not paying the public defence lawyers representing the accused:



Another link. The reference to a Dallas Morning News article is at the bottom. Texas spends three times on death penalty cases as it would cost to keep in inmate incarcerated in the highest security cell for 40 years.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108&scid=7

[onthebottom]

sigh

It's not easy being right all the time!

OTB

[Asterix]

sigh

It's not easy being right all the time!

OTB

Oh brother. Considering I mentioned this earlier in the thread, and have posted similar links about the costs involved with death penalty in the past, perhaps it just seeped into your memory without you knowing it. Sheesh.

[whynotme]

after spending sixteen years in a federal pen i say death to all that deserve it especially killers and molesters.
you , the taxpayers are paying $100,000 a year to keep criminals in a medium/max institution in ontario.
there are so many scum bags wasteing YOUR money (and the government condoning it) it makes me sick.
there is so much waste in government run programs that i haven';t paid taxes since 82 and still make $350,000./year tax free (helps pay for the sp addiction!