The Buildup of military might by China [Archive]

WoodPeckr

03-13-2005, 01:37 AM

Red China will be eternally thankful for the support and help they got from those fine US Corporations, for without them China could never have amassed enough money to purchase all those arms from whomever was willing to sell them. Funny how the USSR was bankrupted into oblivion while Red China, which is still very COMMUNISTIC, is propped up, given all kinds of help and jobs to insure they will not go the way of the USSR on the hope and a prayer that Red China may someday become a democracy.

It must be working since the US trade deficit hit an all time record high, and growing, in the last reporting period! Guess there is more concern for the workers in China than those in the US as jobs are shipped there as fast as they can be. If I didn't know better I'd have to say it sure sounds like that "Giant sucking sound...." ole Ross Perot warned us about a few years back, but then that couldn't be since was was supposed to be crazy according to his pals and buddies in Corporate USA ........ :rolleyes:

ice_dog

03-13-2005, 03:02 AM

you have to pay a visit to China instead of repeating the stuff you heard from CNN. See if it is still that RED.

I was there. I saw racism, prejudice, disrespect for intellectual property, corruption, hypocrisy.

ice_dog

03-13-2005, 03:10 AM

China bought all those weapons from EU to nuke OTB's house. OTB the biggest dictator of worst kind.

Did you just warn someone not to heap 'personal attack' on you ? Do you realize you were threatening him ? Guess hypocrisy is alive and well in communism !!

You have a lot grow-up to do , kid !

Don

03-13-2005, 10:32 AM

I was there. I saw racism, prejudice, disrespect for intellectual property, corruption, hypocrisy.

That seems to indicate to me that it is not that "RED"

Keebler Elf

03-13-2005, 11:29 AM

The reason the US does not sell weapons to China is purely political (the same reason they stopped selling weapons to Iraq). If American weapons manufacturers would be allowed to sell to China, they would do so in a heartbeat. So trying to make France and Germany out to be the bad guys is a little off the mark. The current political situation makes selling arms by US firms to China unacceptable. The current political situation for France and Germany is, understandably, quite different than that of the US (they are their own nations afterall; there is no "law" that all nations must do what the US does).

There's no great morality behind the US arms embargo. If there was, they would never have sold weapons to Iraq. Or any one of a number of military dictatorships in South/Central America. Or Iran for that matter.

Do you honestly think the US would foster a new world war over Taiwan? Yes, I know all the rhetoric, but do you think they really would go to war with China in this day and age? I don't. The support of the American people just isn't there. Especially after the Iraq fiasco. The only reason China hasn't gone in is b/c of the huge military disparity. As that gap closes, so too does the amount of time Taiwan remains independent, IMO.

All of this is moot, of course. China is on course to be the super power of the future, not the United States. And in that, one could call the actions of France and Germany forward thinking.

ice_dog

03-13-2005, 11:30 AM

For a commie country they seem to have mastered "capitalism" more then most EU and western countries...

Quote:
I was there. I saw racism, prejudice, disrespect for intellectual property, corruption, hypocrisy.

Sure, but the glass is half empty or half full..... And North America has NONE of these traits.......

Haha, what a convenient rebuttal ! I never said that Canada is free of such craps as racism, prejudice and corruption.

The difference between(Canada and China) is that there are democracy and freedom here. There are checks and balances here.

Take the Quebec Separatist movement in the 90's for example. During the the 1995 Referendum, the country was on the brink of breakup. Can you recall Ottawa ever legislated a new anti-secession law to prevent Quebec from leaving the confederation ? Did Ottawa ever beef up the military so as to threaten Quebec ? Instead, Ottawa reply on lobbying or propaganda to mobolize the country to deal with such crisis. Then ther was the sponsorship was riddled with corruption. But then this is being deat in the open in a democratic fashion, if you have been following the news- and this is not from CNN

By contrast, Chinese government sent its troops and tanks in to put down the student demonstration

I can understand that many of those who support the policies of the chinese government ar doing it out of national pride. May I ask you why you chose to live in this country, or study in this country, instead of moving back to your be-loved motherland, if u have so much pride in your national origin ?

Keebler Elf

03-13-2005, 11:34 AM

May I ask you why you choose to live in this country, or study in this country, instead of moving back to your be-loved motherland, if u have so much pride in your national origin ?

Because our education system is better, perhaps?

I don't think your argument is a particularly strong one. If Harvard offered me a full scholarship I'd go there. That in no way means I'd ever want to become an American. People like to hold ideals, but they rarely practice them. Whatever gets you ahead in life... that seems to be the bottom line for most people (within reason, of course).

ice_dog

03-13-2005, 12:10 PM

Because our education system is better, perhaps?

I don't think your argument is a particularly strong one. If Harvard offered me a full scholarship I'd go there. That in no way means I'd ever want to become an American. People like to hold ideals, but they rarely practice them. Whatever gets you ahead in life... that seems to be the bottom line for most people (within reason, of course).

Do you have the nerve to tell the chinese government that its prorities are fucked up and more money should be spent to help the rural peasants and to improve the education system, to clean up the environment, instead of being obssessed with brining Taiwan down to its kneels ? The chinese government is really on an ego trip, the way I see it.

To be honest with you, I have come to know some recent chinese immigrants, some of them were quite successful back in their home land.
Needless to say, they made a big sacrifice to leave so much behind to come to Canada. Whe I asked them why, the simple answer is, " You can never trust the Chinese government" . Their reason to coming here is to make sure their children will have a better future because ther is no better alternative than a free and democratic country, even though it is not perfect.

It is a fact, unfortunately for the Chinese, that despite of its enriched history , culture, and values, the chinese people never had a government they can trust. And I am done with this thread.

bornonaug9

03-13-2005, 01:28 PM

instead of being obssessed with brining Taiwan down to its kneels ?

The big picture is that

China could use the anti-secession law as a cloak of legality for new crackdowns against separatists in its western province of Xinjiang and in Tibet, he said.

China has already used the U.S.-led war on terror to justify human rights violations in Xinjiang, where ethnic Uighur Muslims are demanding their own homeland. "Now they could justify all the human rights abuses they are carrying out there by saying, 'Hey, this is the law, and these people are violating it,' " Wachman said.

read the full article give a more complete perspective.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/03/05/MNG6PBKQVM1.DTL

bornonaug9

03-13-2005, 01:51 PM

Do you honestly think the US would foster a new world war over Taiwan? Yes, I know all the rhetoric, but do you think they really would go to war with China in this day and age? I don't. The support of the American people just isn't there. Especially after the Iraq fiasco. The only reason China hasn't gone in is b/c of the huge military disparity. As that gap closes, so too does the amount of time Taiwan remains independent, IMO.

Finally someone get the big picture. You need to ask what US gains going to war with China over Taiwan? The US Administration want to maintain the "status quo". Rice is going to visit China and discuss the new anti-secession law.

bornonaug9

03-13-2005, 02:10 PM

I was there. I saw racism, prejudice, disrespect for intellectual property, corruption, hypocrisy.

How many time you visit China?
How long did you stay there? A week, a month
When was you there (70's 80's 90's 2000's)? 2000's
In what capacity was you there for? Work, holiday
How many cities did you visit and in what provinces? Southern China

I think you want to eloberate your experience and give more details. You may want to talk about the people you encountered in your last visit and what are their opinions about the current government. Your statement is a generalization. You need to substaintate with your experience. I think you write more than that in the "massage", "strip club" forum. I am not questioning your experience, but not convincing without the details. :rolleyes:

bornonaug9

03-13-2005, 10:14 PM

So, what is your point? what are you trying to prove?
beefy4me just ignore ice_dog he/she is troll, he can even put his thoughts together. ice_dog must have agenda and post every negative news about China in this forum. Do argue with him but post relevant info for further discussion.

ice_dog

03-14-2005, 12:46 AM

So, what is your point? what are you trying to prove? Are you saying that its ok to have racism, prejudice and corruption in Canada but not in China?...

Go back to read my post again to get the answer. Don't put words in my mouth, Do make any stupid assumptions.

ice_dog

03-14-2005, 01:05 AM

beefy4me just ignore ice_dog he/she is troll, he can even put his thoughts together. ice_dog must have agenda and post every negative news about China in this forum. Do argue with him but post relevant info for further discussion.

The point is for you to recognize that the chinese people is getting a raw deal under such a totalitarian regime, the Chinese political system is out-dated. It is un-cool, It sucks big time !

Cinema Face

03-14-2005, 05:04 AM

Don't forget, Clinton sold China nuclear secrets in exchange for campaign contributions.

bornonaug9

03-14-2005, 08:52 AM

This guy looks like coming from FaLunGong.
Who care what he is just ignore him, I ask him about his experience in China and he never response.

I was there. I saw racism, prejudice, disrespect for intellectual property, corruption, hypocrisy.

red

03-14-2005, 09:09 AM

That seems to indicate to me that it is not that "RED"

hey - keep me out of it

Hard Idle

03-23-2005, 03:36 AM

...
Take the Quebec Separatist movement in the 90's for example. During the the 1995 Referendum, the country was on the brink of breakup. Can you recall Ottawa ever legislated a new anti-secession law to prevent Quebec from leaving the confederation ? Did Ottawa ever beef up the military so as to threaten Quebec ? Instead, Ottawa reply on lobbying or propaganda to mobolize the country to deal with such crisis. Then ther was the sponsorship was riddled with corruption. But then this is being deat in the open in a democratic fashion, if you have been following the news- and this is not from CNN

By contrast, Chinese government sent its troops and tanks in to put down the student demonstration ...

Perhaps you've heard of the FLQ crisis? It took one single murder for this country to send troops into the streets and suspend civil liberties! That at least ties an all time record, if not taking it outright.

What would Canada have done with an unlawful assembly of 800 000 if just a few dozen Natives causing a nuisance on a rural road is cause to roll out the army, pistol whip women and bayonet their breasts in broad daylight?

I doubt that the protesters in Tianenman Sq would have gotten off any easier had they tried to crash a G8 or APAC Summit in North America with such numbers. Pull some old footage of the methods used by British cousin Magotret Thatcher against Coal-miners, Dockworkers and Pole-tax demonstrations only a fraction that size.

It is tempting to obfuscate the fact that much of this continent is the bounty from the most successful genocide in the last millenium - aginst Native Americans. It's easy to criticize heavy handedness now that any groups who might truly oppose our consensus have been reduced to a statistical non-factor. But we all know how desent, separatism or even the mere objection to attrition were dealt with by the men who's portraits now grace our currency and public buildings.

There is an anoying tendancy from Anglosphere countries to conveniently condem attrocities, but only after they have finished using them for their own purposes. Some of these include the aforementioned genocide, Bio terror (blankets) Starvation (Ireland, Quebec...) Concentration Camps (SouthAfrica) Total War & Ethnic Cleansing (N.America) Atomic Bomb (WW2) and modern Chemical Blackmail (Agent Orange & DU).

red

03-23-2005, 09:30 AM

How the hell do figure this. More than 75% of the country lives in poverty. They have little or no confidence in their economy to allow their currency to float. They have no respect for intellectual property - a key component in any capitialistic society. I could go on an on about productivity, infastructure etc. but I won't at this time.

About the only capitalistic thing they do well is make a condem man's family pay for the bullet that will kill the prisoner.

bbk
She was making a generalization, just like you were in your post. 75% of the country lives in poverty? depends how you define poverty. According to UN reports, somewhere between 5% and 20% of the chinese population live below the poverty line depending on how that is defined. Not unusual for a country that is changing from an agrarian society to a manufacturing society. With respect to the protection of intellectual property - while its important, its not like developed countries don't see examples of intellectual property theft. but yes it is out of control and state sanctioned which is unfortunate.

Keebler Elf

03-23-2005, 09:45 AM

It's so much easier to talk about "intellectual property" when you have it and others don't. China is trying to catch up, and it's not going to let a western concept get in its way...

ice_dog

03-23-2005, 02:08 PM

I was there with a buddy who speaks chinese. While in Shanghai, I also visted a black Canadian who has been working as an ESL teacher in a town about two-hour drive from Shanghai. He had a hard time in looking for accomodation, getting a taxi and even hobbying. And there was no recourse he could take.

As for lack of respect for intellectual property in China, just ask your friend back home.

I will no longer read and respond to any of your posts until you have become a better 'detective'.

Who care what he is just ignore him, I ask him about his experience in China and he never response.

ice_dog

03-23-2005, 02:13 PM

First of all, I cannot speak for Thatcher or Uncle Sam. Secondly, a significant portion of the Canadian population is 'non-Anglo'. I am sure You will be offended if I say all asians are the same

Of course, I remember the FLQ Crisis. Glad you mentioned 'murder'. The FLQs were armed terroriests. They kindnapped James Crooss and murdered him, among other terrorist activites. Trudeau had to do what he had to do. The students protesting at Tiananman Sqaure were just protestors period. They were not armed. They did not kidnap or murder any government officials. Sending the tanks in to put down such protest just because of the large numbers of protestors is a lousy excuse. It shows the lack of respect for human right under a totaritarian regime. Such will never happen in Canada period.

To sumamrize, you are comparing oranges with apples.

Perhaps you've heard of the FLQ crisis? It took one single murder for this country to send troops into the streets and suspend civil liberties! That at least ties an all time record, if not taking it outright.

What would Canada have done with an unlawful assembly of 800 000 if just a few dozen Natives causing a nuisance on a rural road is cause to roll out the army, pistol whip women and bayonet their breasts in broad daylight?

I doubt that the protesters in Tianenman Sq would have gotten off any easier had they tried to crash a G8 or APAC Summit in North America with such numbers. Pull some old footage of the methods used by British cousin Magotret Thatcher against Coal-miners, Dockworkers and Pole-tax demonstrations only a fraction that size.

It is tempting to obfuscate the fact that much of this continent is the bounty from the most successful genocide in the last millenium - aginst Native Americans. It's easy to criticize heavy handedness now that any groups who might truly oppose our consensus have been reduced to a statistical non-factor. But we all know how desent, separatism or even the mere objection to attrition were dealt with by the men who's portraits now grace our currency and public buildings.

There is an anoying tendancy from Anglosphere countries to conveniently condem attrocities, but only after they have finished using them for their own purposes. Some of these include the aforementioned genocide, Bio terror (blankets) Starvation (Ireland, Quebec...) Concentration Camps (SouthAfrica) Total War & Ethnic Cleansing (N.America) Atomic Bomb (WW2) and modern Chemical Blackmail (Agent Orange & DU).

ice_dog

03-23-2005, 02:17 PM

bornonaug9

03-23-2005, 04:21 PM

I do not think you are aware of Taiwan involvement in piracy

These are 1999 figures from The International Intellectual Property Alliance (IIPA) on TAIWAN
http://www.iipa.com/rbc/1999/rbc_taiwan_301_99.html

There are some signs that Taiwan is beginning to turn a corner in solving some long-running structural problems faced by copyright owners seeking enforcement as well as by foreign claimants in Taiwan's courts. In addition, an industry-to-industry approach on the pirate manufacture for export of semiconductor chips used in videogames may be on the horizon. Nonetheless, trade losses to the U.S. copyright industries due to piracy grew in 1998 to $303.0 million, attributable mainly to optical media piracy; piracy rates increased for the sound recording and music industries. Taiwan must take further steps to bring the problems of copyright piracy under control.

ESTIMATED TRADE LOSSES DUE TO PIRACY
(in millions of U.S. dollars)

and LEVELS OF PIRACY : 1995 - 1998

INDUSTRY
1998

1997
1996 1995
Loss Level Loss Level Loss Level Loss Level
Motion Pictures 15.0 10% 15.0 10% 17.0 10% 29.0 15%
Sound Recordings/Musical Compositions 55.0 20% 10.0 12% 8.0 8% 5.0 13%
Computer Programs:

Business Applications(1)
110.8 58% 104.6 63% 111.7 72% 115.2 70%
Computer Programs:

Entertainment Software
103.2 65% 102.6 65% 109.0 69% 105.4 69%
Books 19.0 NA 5.0 NA 5.0 NA 6.0 NA
TOTALS 303.0 237.2 250.7 260.6

if you want to reports from 2000 onwards (pdf) follow the link
http://www.iipa.com/countryreports.html#T

In all parts of the world but China this kind of activity is called theft.

bbk

Keebler Elf

03-23-2005, 08:27 PM

Say, you just wrote chinese essay. I stole your work, put my name on it and published it.

Am I justifed to do so because I don't know how to write(in chinese) and I don't have the time to learn, but I want to 'catch up' ?

Come on, you can come up with a stronger argument ?...lol

First off, I'd be surprised if you could write any essay with such poor writing skills. :rolleyes:

It's nice to see you TOTALLY missed my point. It has nothing to do with justification and everything to do with practicality. Your argument is exactly what I would expect from a westerner trying to somehow guilt the Chinese into being subservient. This is power politics dude, you need to step out b/c you're not up to the task...

ice_dog

03-23-2005, 09:06 PM

I never said that I had good writing skill or I could write an essay. You sound like a cry baby who lost a fight and blamed others for your own stupidity and ignorance.

First off, I'd be surprised if you could write any essay with such poor writing skills. :rolleyes:

It's nice to see you TOTALLY missed my point. It has nothing to do with justification and everything to do with practicality. Your argument is exactly what I would expect from a westerner trying to somehow guilt the Chinese into being subservient. This is power politics dude, you need to step out b/c you're not up to the task...

bornonaug9

03-23-2005, 09:32 PM

On the 13th
I was there. I saw racism, prejudice, disrespect for intellectual property, corruption, hypocrisy.

Also on the 13th
How many time you visit China?
How long did you stay there? A week, a month
When was you there (70's 80's 90's 2000's)? 2000's
In what capacity was you there for? Work, holiday
How many cities did you visit and in what provinces? Southern China

I think you want to eloberate your experience and give more details. You may want to talk about the people you encountered in your last visit and what are their opinions about the current government. Your statement is a generalization. You need to substaintate with your experience.

Then on the 23rd
I was there with a buddy who speaks chinese. While in Shanghai, I also visted a black Canadian who has been working as an ESL teacher in a town about two-hour drive from Shanghai. He had a hard time in looking for accomodation, getting a taxi and even hobbying. And there was no recourse he could take.

I will no longer read and respond to any of your posts until you have become a better 'detective'.

You are 'dollar short and ten days late'. Actually I was very disappointed, I expected you will list a long list of incidents to support you claim that 'I was there. I saw racism, prejudice, disrespect for intellectual property, corruption, hypocrisy'. If China is that bad something bad must have happen to you personally, but you are relating another person experience.

I will fully understand you hatred for PRC if you are a Taiwanese, but I assume you are not.

Hard Idle

03-24-2005, 01:06 AM

"Intellectual Property" seems a grandiose term for the shlock & junk which the film & recording industry peddles. I say if you can copy it, you can sell it!

Let the media & entertainment conglomerates spend money researching how to encrypt their own material better. These guys use satelites to pipe their endorsement-laden junk culture all over the world, sometimes over the objections of censors. They helped to stimulate the emergence of consumer societies in Asia, so they just have to deal with the greed & oportunism that goes along with such changes.

Western calls to crack down on piracy would look much better if governments in the former (and still aspiring) colonial powers would order their museums, galleries & universities to return their countless plundered cultural treasures to the countries of origin, as show of good faith before throwing hissy fits over home-burned Mariah Carey discs.